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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Wall-E was so overblown and it hurts to think that we've resorted to letting environmentalists scare children because of theory with no fact.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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It's the adults who have to be scared to take the climate change seriously.

There's a huge amount of facts to support climate change, and it's one of those cases where there can be no "let's agree to disagree" ending, a compromise, because this is not a matter of opinions, it's a matter of survival. If humanity acts, the world will still change, temperatures will rise by couple of degrees, huge amounts of species will vanish, sea levels will rise but not so much that humanity couldn't cope with it, there will be more droughts on some areas, more rain on others etc, but we could manage and the world would still be familiar to us.

But if we won't, then the world will truly become alien to us, seas will rise by tens of meters and we will cause a mass extinction and might well destroy ourselves too in the process. And then the only thing that would remind possible future intelligent inhabitans of Earth - let's say 300 million years into the future on the future supercontinent of Pangaea Ultima - about our existence (beyond some of our space probes like Voyagers and Pioneers in deep space) would be the mark that the mass extinction would leave in the geological record: Perhaps meters of rock with far less fossils in them than below and above. And among those rocks, perhaps few fossils of Homo sapens sapiens.

The choice is ours: Long future, hopefully across the Milky Way, or becoming just another species to rise and fall on this planet, in the process becoming the first species to cause a mass extinction.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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See species die off every day while some with small mutations rise to a larger status and take their place. It happens every day. Honestly humanity is the only one that is more worried about the feelings of animals with no sentience. We have a 'hippie' mindset, which is basically love everyone and everything to the point where its more important that self-preservation. If global warming goes down we'll adapt or die, its just that. Personally I don't believe it'll happen because the evidence to suppiort it is actually far outweighed by the evidence against it, but liberal ideology on the subject has the cash backin it so that's where the recognition goes. We put way to much into 'preserving beauty' and not into development for our own self preservation. We cry about the trees being cut down, but honestly according to comparative studies there are more trees in KS (where I live) now than there were a hundred years ago and we don't have as hardcore of a planting movement. They seeded and grew themselves, as nature intended. If we cut a forest area down to use it for something else TS. Its human development. Preserving beauty won't save the planet, and it won't save us. However, I DO believe in hybrid cars and doing what we can to learn as much about artificial oxygen exchange as possible (aagin, something the environmentalists fight because if that goes through then plants become obselete and they have nothing to protect). The point is that this planet is gonna shift a little, it has for years. Whether a man mad disaster or something natural and out of our hands, it'll shift. That's the nature of reality...change. Just because we don't want it doesn't mean we can stop it. Personally, there isn't any evidence of a coming Ice Age based off heat (worst...idea...with no evidence...ever). But we do have some unrefuted as of yet evidence that there will be seas rising. Actually, the INCONVENIENT TRUTH film that came out was nearly 100% refuted by a book that was written. The author was sued and made destitute after being called a liar and the grounds were that he was hurting enviromnemtal groups and attacking them personally. In reality, they just can't handle it when they lose. They have nothing else to fight for. Anyways, I just personally believe that Global Warming is a myth, but if its not ya know what we'll live.The world won't completely flood because for one thing with rain exchange and oxygen levels that's completely impossible. but anywho yes we'll live if it turns out true. But its not. And it annoys me that all evidence against it is pushed out of the way but Like SoS said in another thread about Del Rey and the FotJ series, its a business, and whatever's profitable will be done...
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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The climate is changing, just like has went through changes for the past millions of years. We have reports of climate changes much like this one before we had all these "evil" SUVs and cars. Ever heard of the ice ages? The last one was when humans were living, and we survived it.

Is climate change real? Yes.

Is it like what Al Gore and crazed environmentalists say it is? No.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:48 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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You're a wise man Jedi Joe lol
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Wall-E was so overblown and it hurts to think that we've resorted to letting environmentalists scare children because of theory with no fact.

Actually Andrew Stanton expressed time and again that he is not an environmentalist, just that, early on he had a few ideas. The original idea was that humanity left earth (not neccesarily for climate change) and forgot to turn the last robot off and they wanted him to be a janitor (one of the saddest jobs ever. So the setting (setting is all it is) just seemed to fit, however the true theme of the movie is finding meaning out of life.

All that aside, I found humanity's portrayal hilarious and I could just see it happening, but it's also inspiring (particularly the end credits), how they could change their ways.

EDIT: Don't believe me, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9vkK75PXrw&feature=channel_page
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Jedi Joe wrote:
The climate is changing, just like has went through changes for the past millions of years. We have reports of climate changes much like this one before we had all these "evil" SUVs and cars. Ever heard of the ice ages? The last one was when humans were living, and we survived it.

Is climate change real? Yes.

Is it like what Al Gore and crazed environmentalists say it is? No.


I just read a columnist writing in a newspaper pretty much the same claims. Once again. People have this odd idea that if climate change has happened before, it's somehow not a bad thing. Just because our own lineage has happened to survive climate change before. This forgets all the species that haven't survived past events of climate change.

Neanderthals and the megafauna that roamed North America and Europe didn't survive the climate changes of their time. Our ancestors did. But that's no guarantee of future survival. James Dean's mechanic survived the car accident that killed Dean, but did that guarantee him safety for future car accidents? No. He died in a car accident few decades later.

Same with humans and the climate. Past survival is not guarantee of future one. Even for the species, and even if the species itself survives, hundreds of millions or billions of humans wouldn't.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Well survival may not be a garuntee but ya know, it never was from the start. Animals hunt each other into extinction just like we hunt them, we just don't talk about it as much because it can't be their fault. We have to be the evil ones. Its sad.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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There were many climate changes much like this one many times in the human era. You can figure that humans have been on the planet Earth for around 10,000 years at least.

This is only a weather trend, and we will get out of it, and we are perfectly capable of doing so.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Jedi Joe wrote:
There were many climate changes much like this one many times in the human era. You can figure that humans have been on the planet Earth for around 10,000 years at least.

This is only a weather trend, and we will get out of it, and we are perfectly capable of doing so.


It's not just a weather trend, as all long range records show that the average temperatures have been rising since the early days of Industrial era. And even if it wouldn't be caused by humanity, we would still have to deal with it by changing our own lifestyle as a global civilization and doing - as we probably have to do in the future now too - large scale geo-engineering projects. Many people who claim that the rising temperatures are caused by the activity of the Sun, cosmic rays etc seem oblivious to this fact: Whatever the reasons behind the changes - and everything shows we humans are responsible from most to all of them - we have to try to change our own activity, because we can't change that of the Sun. Or we will perish.

Also, studies of past climates and sea leves done based on samples from old glaciers show that the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, average temperatures and sea levels are linked. So the current levels of carbon dioxide - over a third above early industrial levels - in the atmosphere will lead to higher temperatures and sea levels, even if we do our utmost best to reduce emissions. And the level of carbon dioxide is rising fast to levels not seen since the days of Pronconsul in the middle Miocene.

The 150 000 - 200 000 year old Homo sapens sapiens might well soon be as extinct as Proconsul if we won't accept that the climate is changing, that is changing because our own activity and that we can succesfully stop the most drastic changes from happening if we act and reduce our emissions and adapt a more sustainable lifestyle on a global level.


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Here's my issue with what you're saying, Rouge77. A lot of your facts come from information scientists tell us comes from millions of years ago. Yet...we have zero amount of proof that anything was around that long ago. I may be wrong, so please show me some evidence: not an item that scientists classified to be millions of years old based on presupasitions that the world is millions of years old. Real evidence that can be scientifically proven to have existed that long ago. When that evidence can be produced, I'll listen to some of the evidence that comes from a time that as of now, no one can proof existed.

However, I do agree that it is our job to take care of the Earth a lot better than we have been. People who simply say that it's just a weather problem ignore the fact that humans really don't take care of the earth very well. I don't know if we're causing things like global warming, but I think we can all agree that we can do a better job at keeping the earth in a healthy condition. I don't see any of this destroying the earth, but why not take care of the earth? Why just let it go to waste?


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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You can't - with all respect - deny the scientifically proven and universally accepted ages for the universe, Earth etc and then say that you want it scientifically proven. Because by not accepting for example the age given to Earth by radiometric dating you deny the whole science behind these results. Same goes with the age of the universe, if you deny the results of modern physics, you necessarily deny also whole field of modern physics and then how could anyone ever convince you of anything that is tied to the realm of physics?

It's not hard to understand how to calculate the age of the Earth based on radioactive decay of uranium, for example, but most of us can't actually do the necessary work themselves. I can't, I'm no geologist. Same with the age of the universe. Astronomy is one of my hobbies, so I could bore my way to the Earth's core on this subject, but the basic thing is that on our daily life we trust other people that they are experts when it comes to their work and that they can do their work better than we ourselves could: Doctors, dentists, pilots, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, police officers, engineers etc.

But when it comes to science, somehow many of us who don't want to fill the holes in their own teeth themselves, who don't want to fly only in planes piloted by them, drive only cars build themselves over bridges whose architectural plans they themselves made etc, then many of us suddenly don't want to accept that people who have studied and worked on some specific area of science for decades would know things better than us. Because their findings or scientific wotldview is in disagreement with how we would like the world to be. And somehow it's easier to deny that a meteorologist knows the climate better than ourselves, even when we accept that a train driver or a captain of a cruise ship knows her or his work better than we.

When it comes to science and religion, one shouldn't mix them. Aristotelian science in the middle ages wasn't a great success. Science is about facts, religion concerns faith about supernatural things, which, because they are supernatural, can be neither disproven or proven based on the laws of nature. Any attempt to tie the two together will just hamper the progress of science and tie religion unnecessarily into soon outdated science.


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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The earth has been "proven" to be millions of years old with shaky methods. We know for a fact that radiometric dating does not always work. For example, a rock sample from the newly formed 1986 lava dome from Mount St. Helens was dated using Potassium-Argon dating. The newly formed rock gave ages for the different minerals in it of between 0.5 and 2.8 million years. Mount Ngauruhoe is located on the North Island of New Zealand and is one of the country’s most active volcanoes. Eleven samples were taken from solidified lava and dated. These rocks are known to have formed from eruptions in 1949, 1954, and 1975. The rock samples were sent to a Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The “ages” of the rocks ranged from 0.27 to 3.5 million years old. It seems to me that a scientist could take a rock from an unrecorded source, date it at millions of years, and say that's when it came from. But they have no evidence of that.

Another example of the faulty idea of millions of years: New studies have provided evidence that radioactive decay supports a young earth. One of the studies involved the amount of helium found in granite rocks. Granite contains tiny zircon crystals, which contain radioactive uranium, which decays into lead. During this process, for each atom of uranium decaying into lead, eight helium atoms are formed and migrate out of the zircons and granite rapidly. The decay of uranium into lead is a slow process (half-life of 4.5 billion years). Since helium migrates out of rocks rapidly, there should be very little to no helium remaining in the zircon crystals. Yet, there is still a large amount.

As for religion and science not going together; I'm afraid I have to disagree here too. Wink

Those looking at the world with a religious view have the same facts as those looking at it with a scientific (with zero religion involved) view. The difference is how they interpret the facts, and that starts with their presuppositions. A Christian is presuming that God created everything (which can't be proven, meaning one must use faith to believe this). Anyone looking at the facts without being a Christian (or any other religion, I suppose) would assume things like evolution, or the big bang to be true (which can't be proven, meaning one must use faith to believe this). It comes down to believing in something that cannot be proven to come to the conclusion of something like an old earth or a young earth. You say that science is about facts, religion about faith, but I find it takes an ton of faith to believe some of the things the scientific world tells me, like evolution (no proof, therefore requires faith to believe in.). The only suggestion I have is to decide which one is more believable.

Lastly (wow, this is long), I'm afraid I can deny the universally accepted ages of the universe, because that's based on a presupposition I don't share. It's not universally accepted either; it's accepted by the majority of the scientific community and the majority of those with no religious ideas. I'm hard-pressed to say that could be considered universally accepted. On your point that we simply have to trust the experts to do their jobs, that's very true. It is a scientists job to give us a scientifically proven explanation to something. Just like it's a police officers job to treat all races fairly, a carpenters job to build the framework right, and an electricians job to properly wire the house. There have been cases where all of these people don't do their jobs right; why can it not be the same with a scientist? Because they're in that field, they are less prone to making mistakes? No. While you have to trust the people to do their job, you have to accept that they won't always do it correctly.


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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You tell em OMB! Wink

Another big reason why a lot of people believe in this scientific balderdash is the way the human mind works these days. Nowadays people can't see anything that isn't right in front of their noses, not like the good old days.

From The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

"Have you no idea of progress? Of development?"
"I have observed them both in an egg, we call it 'going bad' in Narnia."

So true, Caspian, so true.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


Last edited by Reepicheep on Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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I don't know what this thread is about (and I've said I won't post in here again), but reading the beginning of one post is enough for me to say that I know some of these people even outside of the Star Wars community and there's no point in discussing some of these matters with them because they do not wish to hear it. Since I have a thorough background in a science field, I know when people want to learn more and when they feel their beliefs are threatened. And when you site sources and studies, google it quickly and point us to these sources and studies so we can research just how great these sources and studies are within the scientific community, whether they say thousands or millions, and I love how it's assumed all scientists believe these things without seeing the uncertainty that they're accused of not seeing (take a science class and you learn about the scientific method; read scientific journals and you learn about the sometime long peer review process before publication).

And so you all know, I'm a meteorologist who's seen arguments for climate change, both for and against, conversed with some scientists who were part of the group that won the Nobel Peace Prize about the arguments for and against, and will not allow an easy "it's not happening because it is not happening" be an argument anyone can get away with with me. (When I tell people I'm a meteorologist, this is always the first thing I'm asked and thought I'd just share it anyone Smile ) Happy discussion!
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