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Force Philosophy v1
 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Welcome to Force - Philosophy v1

This thread is for those who would like an in-depth discussion on the Philosophy of the Force in relation to the entire SWU storyline. (Beyond Jedi, Sith, etc.)

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WARNING: THIS IS A MAJOR SPOILER THREAD!!! IF YOU HAVE NOT READ MOST IF NOT ALL SW NOVELS/COMICS AND WOULD NOT LIKE TO HAVE THE ENTIRE EU SPOILED FOR YOU, PLEASE TURN BACK NOW!!!

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THERE WILL BE NO SPOILER WARNINGS FROM THIS POINT FORWARD. IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT ANYONE PARTICIPATING IN THE DISCUSSION HAS READ ALL OF THE EU. OR DOES NOT CARE TO BE SPOILED.
***BUT DO NOT LET THIS STOP YOU FROM WADING IN!!!!
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Last edited by illogicalRogue2 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:43 am; edited 1 time in total


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Re: Force Philosophy
 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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I think the biggest thing of debate aside from Midi-Chlorins themselves is the sides of the Force aspect.

There are MANY ways to look at this issue. Me I still look at the Force as "The Force IS"


Just with anything dealing with the Force, anything is possible. Things we thought could not be done have. Things that should not have been done have.

But the bottom line is that in the end if one is not ever vigilant, they will fall to their own darkness, be it ego, pride, hate, fear or anger. there are so many foot holds.

Vergere might have been onto a truth, but IMO no one in the SWU has the truth, for the Force is too large to quantify.
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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The more novels that get written, and the more additional little force user groups that get mentioned and detailed, the more I move away from the light vs. dark.

What is it inside the individual?

That being said, it still appears to me that being sith leads to bad things, even if there was some good intention involved. Tony Soprano was a likeable mobster. But he was still involved in murder, corruption, snagging every woman he could on the side that he could, etc.

So Luke can dabble in the dark side, but when push comes to shove, he's just not inherently that bad of a soul internally. Thus the dark side/sith way of thought would not dominate his life.

Anakin, being a good guy in intention, had internal demons. Thus he could easily let those demons lead him down a path he should not have gone. Had he not been a wounded, insecure, unstable soul, he would have chopped Palpy down.

I guess that's enough diarrhea of the mouth for now.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Well there's the Force, and then there's these two end results of the Force: light and dark. It all begs the question of what causes you to end up where?

Ex. Can I use Force lightning to jump my landspeeder when the battery goes dead without falling to the dark side, even a little? Or is it not the end result but the intent? If I use hatred to emit that Force lightening, does that lead me to the dark side? What if I use selflessness to Force choke someone? In the end, is it a combination of the two?

And if the Force is a rainbow, then what do the other colors represent? Doesn't good and evil have only two sides, or two points on a spectrum? So then is the rainbow all those points in between? Various degrees of good and bad?

But then, isn't the Force more than good and evil?

Such a deep topic. Cool
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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I never liked the whole "the Force is not good or evil, it's the heart of whoever uses it," It tends to give way to "the end justifies the means," Example: using the Force to choke someone to death is bad, But what if that someone is a Sith bent on overthrowing the galaxy? Can a Jedi use "dark side" methods to bring down a enemy without actually going dark? Perhaps, but it seems unlikely.

Take a look at Caedus. He was willing to do unspeakable thing, but his main goal was to keep the galaxy safe.

I'd expound more, but homework calls. Will have to save it for later. Smile
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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Well yes, Caedus' initial goal was peace for the galaxy. But the further he got steeped in the dark side, the more he seemed to use that as an excuse for his behavior. The end justifying the means sort of got warped there.

Good question, is a dark side techinique OK if it is to eliminate an evil person. For myself, yes, I think it is OK. If I walked in on some freak molesting a child or something, I would beat him to his death, no questions asked. Is beating someone to death in and of itself wrong? Yes. In that particular case, an evil/wrong action is justified.

Now, there are variations on that theme:

Mara feels guilty for going after Jacen as an assasin rather than as a Jedi. I can agree with that thought process(even though as a parent I understand it). She did not go after him with the purest of intentions.

However, would it be different if she went after him as a Jedi, in the proper Jedi state of mind, but a fight ensued and she used force lightning to kill him as a last resort. She had the right frame of mind, but in desparation used a dark technique. That I think is fine.


So in essence, my point is light vs. dark, good vs. bad, is frequently not very clear cut.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Just look at Mace Windu. He had to embrace the Dark Side to sink fully into Vaapad, and in the ROTS novel, he goes far enough that he is pretty much using the Dark Side. But, he was using it to defeat Palpatine, so is that justified?


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Perhaps. But where is the line? Where does it get to the point where it's no longer dark against light, but dark against dark?

On the other side of the coin, what about when the Jedi get so obsessed with light and dark that they lose sight of the bigger picture? When they're so concerned about being "tainted" that they're rendered ineffective and people suffer? Is that just as wrong as using the dark side?
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So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.



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The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Perhaps. But where is the line? Where does it get to the point where it's no longer dark against light, but dark against dark?


On the other side of the coin, what about when the Jedi get so obsessed with light and dark that they lose sight of the bigger picture? When they're so concerned about being "tainted" that they're rendered ineffective and people suffer? Is that just as wrong as using the dark side?


First question, where is the line? Who knows. Sometimes you need to do evil, to defeat evil(dark side techniques, undercover agents that infiltrate oraganized crime and have to be very convincing, etc).


Second point I noticed in LOTF when Luke would not go after Jacen for fear of being tainted of the dark side. He had the single most ability to get the job done, and probably could have accomplished it easier than Jaina, so he probably should have done it. That whole business of being tainted by killing Lumiya out of revenge.....convenient to have a reason that Jaina had to do it.


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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I see two ways to look at the Force.

A) The Force does not have a dark-side or light-side. The Force doesn't have sections. Dark-side and light-side are classifications by groups of people who are using opinions to decide if using the Force in certain ways is right or wrong. I think the only difference between lightning being used by a Sith and lightning being used by a Jedi is the user/purpose. It doesn't need different names based on the user. Using a power that some may classify as part of the dark-side doesn't make it a bad power. The Force is everywhere. It's everything. It depends on the use of the Force. The Force isn't good or evil. It's just there. It's the users who are good or evil.

B) There is only the dark-side. The entire Force is the dark-side, but not in the way you think of it. Here, I use "dark-side" because that's what the Jedi would classify using all parts of the Force. I think Palpatine was partly correct. The Jedi had a narrow-minded view of the Force. They were scared of this "dark-side", because they looked at it the wrong way. The dark-side is the Force. It isn't evil, unless used for evil means. I don't think the light-side exists at all. Only people who use the Force for good. But again, good is going to be a point of view. Which makes this whole thing tricky.


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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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In the matter of Force philosophy i used to subscribe to the 'light vs. dark' view, but i've recently began to think of it in other ways. For one thing, i regard the Force as a consciousness, a metaphysical idea that is accessable to some. The midichlorian thing bothered me because it took away from the mystique of the Force, but i usually just kinda don't think about it.
In regards to the Force's will, i can't help but wonder what all is involved. For one thing, the concept of the Dark is one that intruiges me. The Force being just an extension of something larger is someting i could get into. But as to its will, i come to its given visions and prophecies. Such as the chosen one prophecy of the Jedi. The chosen one is supposed to be someone who brings balance to the Force. Now...does that mean peace? Because it seems the Force chooses someone on either side of the fight and brings a stop, but not necessarily a peace. For one thing take Anakin Skywalker. I believe he walked the chosen road in two ways. First off he became Vader and slaughtered the Jedi, which in and of itself brought a kind of balance. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the Jedi view in the Old Republic was narrow minded and jaded. They needed to broaden their horizons, and the massacre Anakin and Palpatine inflicted accomplished that. By bringing the Jedi down to just Yoda and Obi-Wan, Anakin and old Palps paved the way for Luke to set up a new Jedi order that encompasses a broader view of the Force. Then a time came when it needed to be broadened further but Luke wasn't expanding, and so after the Vong war Jacen went out and learned new things and became Caedus. Now perhaps this was to combat and bring down whatever menace we have coming in FotJ, but Caedus was still brought about by a need for balance. So was Bane. When the Sith had that narrow minded hive mind thing going on where they just tried to get along to fight the Jedi and failed, Bane destroyed them all. Balance is never permenant and so it would seem the Force sacrifices whoever is currently the most powerful in order to keep the balance. Bane was the strongest of the Sith in his time, and so he was chosen by the Force in the Sith'ari prophecy (which bears amazing resemblance to the Jedi chosen one prophecy). When the time came again, Anakin was chosen to bring down the narrow minded old Jedi and eventually the current Sith order. Caedus brought out the idea that other cultures than the Jedi might be right about the Force and also brought the new threat into the light for all to see. I believe that Anakin Solo would've been sacrificed by the Force had he lived long enough. I don't know, just a view i have.
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:43 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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I too followed the Light vs. Darkness, but opened myself to the possibility that there was a truth to Vergere's words on the Dark Side- There is less to fear in the Dark Side of the Force then there is in the Dark Side of one's soul.


The Force is beyond sides so it has no sides, yet it does have sides since it is defined by the people who interact with it.

For me I see it all boiling down to techniques and motive coupled with intent and measured against actions.

Though I must say I long for a "good" Sith. (Has hopes for Vestara)

Mara, Kam, and Zekk. But mainly Mara and Zekk have been trained as Dark Siders first then became Jedi. I have always wanted a story where the person gets his righteous vengeance. As Kurt said- some freak and a kid- I mean if it was a person's child, then as they go to make the kill they kill not in hate, but out of Love for who the child is, and the love of the child, love to defend the child from the person.

I'd enjoy a vengeance tale me thinks.
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-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:12 am Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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I'd enjoy a vengeance tale me thinks.

Yes indeed, a nice juicy, angry, violent, revenge bent storyline. Heck, they may have passed on a great chance for it by having Jaina go after Jacen. Imagine if they had written Luke like that after Mara's death, rather than being consumed by his grief for a while(not complaining, I liked LOTF, but this route could have been cool too).


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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Just an interesting thing to throw out there is that the Sith have Force Lightning and the Jedi have Force Judgment (ala Plo Koon). Essentially they're the same thing: lightning.

Now, if the Force is this well of power people can tap into, then it's the old adage that power corrupts. When you use that power for selfish means, it has an affect on you. Everyone is different, so everyone has different tolerance levels of how much they can be selfish without sacrificing their selflessness. Thus the line between dark (selfishness) and light (selflessness) is different for everybody. An it all comes down to how and what they use the Force for. By using the Force, you have it pour through you and out of you toward some object, or perhaps merely by touching the Force you activate the midichlorians in you and by doing something selfish, it affects those midichlorians, thus changing you ever so slightly, good or bad.

But the Force also seems to have a mind of its own quite possibly. A consciousness that can guide or direct things. If this is so, is there just one mind or two: a light and a dark. Does the Dark Side have a mind that Sith can look to for guidance? In Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, Stover talks about the Dark, a new aspect of the Force that has a Will. On the flip side, Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan seem to back up the idea of the Force having a will of its own.

So if there is a good and an evil mind at work, why does there need to be balance? Even if their aren't two minds of work, why does there need to be a balance? Why not have all good, all light?
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:45 am Reply with quote  
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  kurtdc
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But the Force also seems to have a mind of its own quite possibly. A consciousness that can guide or direct things. If this is so, is there just one mind or two: a light and a dark.

Heckuva good question. I'd like to fall on the argument that there is the force, and light or dark depends on the individual and the intent. However, in many books they have talked of the will of the force. Well the will of what force? The single force? Light? Dark?

Does the will of the force only influence the good guys to do the right thing? And thus is it just the bad guys that can access the force oppose the will of the force for their own selfish needs?


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