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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:27 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Anyone watch Disney's 3 musketeers? I was wondering, if D'artangnan killing the bad guy after learning his father was killed by the guy-

would that have been something for a Jedi to have risked themselves? The closest I can think is Obi-wan fighting Maul, but with that in the end they wrote it that he was centered. (at least thats how I recall it)
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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I think the Sith needed to be a female Order- think about it- the Rule of 2- if it's a girl she can go out get some guy to impregnate her, and wala- instant Apprentice 9 months later.

That would cut out the infighting, and make for a much more brutal Sith Order!
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Are you suggesting that a female Sith Order would pack a bigger punch? Can't really disagree. Wink
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Are you suggesting that a female Sith Order would pack a bigger punch? Can't really disagree. Wink


Yes I am!



Bane 3 spoiler- not a "Spoil" but a tidbit on the Jedi's veiw of the Force.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)



This makes me think about the recent "Truths" we are told about Jacen. That he had the Greater Good in mind the whole time.

He was self sacrificing WHO he was, as a Jedi, a family member, and in the end even as a Lover and a Father. He used the POWER of the Force for his Greater Good. He just used the DS to do it.

IMO it's looking like the tragedy was that he was judged as being Sith and got the Death sentience that comes with it. Cause once more we find the galaxy in civil war. Wasn't Luke a mass murder when it came to Storm troopers? It's all relative. Yet Jacen's vision succeeds, by his death. Unlike Palpatine and other Sith, Jacen wasn't doing it for himself. He was doing it all for the Galaxy. (Granted it's what he told himself, but for him it was his truth)


As evil as it went down I'm still seeing Jacen in a small sliver of light.
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:

As evil as it went down I'm still seeing Jacen in a small sliver of light.


Interesting thought. Y'know, I was discussing the Force and what makes right and wrong with a friend earlier. The question I asked my friend was this; suppose you're a Jedi and you have to interrogate a prisoner. Suppose you threaten to kill them if they don't talk. You have no intention of actually killing them, but they don't have to know that. Was making the threat wrong and/or of the dark side? Anyone have any thoughts?
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 PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:55 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
illogicalRogue2 wrote:

As evil as it went down I'm still seeing Jacen in a small sliver of light.


Interesting thought. Y'know, I was discussing the Force and what makes right and wrong with a friend earlier. The question I asked my friend was this; suppose you're a Jedi and you have to interrogate a prisoner. Suppose you threaten to kill them if they don't talk. You have no intention of actually killing them, but they don't have to know that. Was making the threat wrong and/or of the dark side? Anyone have any thoughts?


I'd say no- unless you used the Force to make the person feel threatened.
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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It depends on how the Force works. If it's a matter of using the Force for something bad, then you could do bad things as long as you didn't use the Force. But just doing bad things can corrupt a person, and if a corrupt person uses the Force, I would imagine that would make them even worse, thus Dark Side bound. In the end, I think it comes down to moderation and your own values and character. If you become corrupt, then you'll fall to the Dark Side. Something like that can't be cheated or manipulated in your favor. It's a reflection of your character.
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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I did like the way Corran used Fear to his advantage in I, Jedi- yet that wasn't tainted- he used it in a light way IMO.
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Time for my thread resurrection spree. Here's something I wrote at TFN last July, which is interesting to look at now in relation to the Mortis trilogy:

I agree with the idea that the Jedi follow the "whole Force," but I don't agree that "light" or the "light side" is the whole "rainbow" in the metaphor, because it's taking the metaphor and trying to then apply that to the Force, rather than structuring the metaphor around what the Force is.

I would define the light side as the opposite of the dark side. It basically follows off of what Yoda tells Luke to be in order to tell the "good side from the bad":

"When you are calm, at peace. Passive."

This is opposed to the dark side, which is predicated upon passions, namely fear, anger, hate, and aggression. Though I think the "light side" itself is a fabrication in the sense that you can take any particular emotions, namely positive ones, opposite the dark side emotions, and label them light side. You can just as easily take the absence of emotion, or serenity, and label it light side. All exist in the Force.

None of these "sides" represent the whole gamut of the Force. As to why I agree the Jedi follow the whole Force, well, the old Jedi Order was particularly concerned with the Force being balanced, and sought to follow the will of the Force, as opposed to any particular side. Obviously, they didn't use the dark side, but their desire for balance obviously wasn't rooted out of particular interest in the domination of the light.

My newest of many interpretations of Traitor and Vergere is not that she is saying that there is no dark side, but merely that the Force encompasses *all* sides, light, dark, rainbow, whatever, all choices, all morality. The dark side still exists in the Force.

She was trying to tell Jacen that to seek guidance from the Force, which is basically what he was doing when he had his vision in Balance Point, and the subsequent paralysis with indecision, is a losing proposition: the Force encompasses all choices, all sides, all moralities. He has to choose and act based upon his own morality and own decisions, and not wait for the Force to tell him what to do, because it won't. That vision Jacen received is all the guidance he received, he had to choose how to act based upon it, and by doing so, was acting in accordance with the will of the Force.

It's much like Qui-Gon Jinn. He encounters Jar Jar Binks by chance upon landing on Naboo, and chooses to take this as the will of the Force, and chooses to accept Binks as a companion. Ultimately, this pays off by leading to the alliance between the Naboo and the Gungans. Likewise, he encountered Anakin Skywalker, whom had the highest concentration of midichlorians in a life form, and chose to take him to the Jedi temple, which ultimately led to him bringing balance to the Force.

I think it holds up pretty well, no? Of particular note is that I mentioned "[the Jedi] didn't use the dark side," which apparently they did, to an extent, insofar as that even while using their lightsabers and the Force for defense, using it destructively is still "dark," at least Sam Witwer seems to believe so and says it in an interview about the Mortis trilogy.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:42 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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I promise to check this out more thoroughly and give a proper response soon. I know that Mortis perplexed me something fierce.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Sorry to bring back the issue about light and dark, but I feel there is a in interesting point that it hasn't been discussed. What if a light side acti, done with good intentions, breaks the natural balance of thinks? I mena, look Raynar and the Killiks. He didn't do anything wrong, but Killik population grew exponentially. The whole species became a threat, no just because of Lomi Plo, but because the situation became untenable. His protection of innocents became something dark..

So, is it possible to do everything right and do something "dark"?


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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ROTS Stover novel Mace espoused that it was the Jedi themselves who were responsible for the imbalance in the Force. When the Sith Order became the rule of two, the Jedi obviously outnumbered them. Thousands of Jedi naturally poured all the good acts into the Force for a thousand years, thereby creating more Light and bringing about the imbalance.

As for the example of Raynar: he was not simply doing a good thing. He was upsetting the natural order and causing the Killiks to absorb an ethic that was not natural to them. Therefore you could argue that no, his acts weren't simply "good".
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
ROTS Stover novel Mace espoused that it was the Jedi themselves who were responsible for the imbalance in the Force. When the Sith Order became the rule of two, the Jedi obviously outnumbered them. Thousands of Jedi naturally poured all the good acts into the Force for a thousand years, thereby creating more Light and bringing about the imbalance.

As for the example of Raynar: he was not simply doing a good thing. He was upsetting the natural order and causing the Killiks to absorb an ethic that was not natural to them. Therefore you could argue that no, his acts weren't simply "good".


I guess it could be argued that Raynar was healing two people that were supposed to die, which was bad. That's what Anakin couldn't get past; death is also necessary to the Force, and keeping someone alive when it's their time to die is unnatural.

I didn't think Mace was suggesting that the Jedi were unbalancing the Force, because in Episode II him and Yoda both know that the Force is unbalanced in favor of the dark side, and their ability to use the Force has been diminished as a result.

His metaphor seems to be, essentially, that the Jedi create light through their actions, but the Sith do not create dark, but use what's already there. I take that to mean that the Jedi are necessary to keep the Force in balance, because without them, it's out of balance, regardless of the Sith. On a more psychological level, he seems to be suggesting that the darkness is natural and instinctive, as Vergere instructs Jacen on Yuuzhan'tar; the Sith do what comes naturally, the Jedi act in a more civilized and refined manner.


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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:25 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Two things here. I agree the Jedi were responsable of the greater darkness. But it was because they secluded themselves. People began to fear them and fear leads to darkness.

Regarding Raynar and salving people who must die... Does that mean every single new generation of the Fel Dynasty after Marasiah is "something dark" because she shuold have died but Cade saved her with the Dark Side?


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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:07 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Cerrinea wrote:
ROTS Stover novel Mace espoused that it was the Jedi themselves who were responsible for the imbalance in the Force. When the Sith Order became the rule of two, the Jedi obviously outnumbered them. Thousands of Jedi naturally poured all the good acts into the Force for a thousand years, thereby creating more Light and bringing about the imbalance.

As for the example of Raynar: he was not simply doing a good thing. He was upsetting the natural order and causing the Killiks to absorb an ethic that was not natural to them. Therefore you could argue that no, his acts weren't simply "good".


Oh man- I knew I'd read that somewhere. Drat- I'm back to pondering things again.

The whole balance, in both terms of Philosophy, and Prophecy, as well as in the SWU's life Force. Is one that's a complex dance of George Lucas, EU Authors, and more George Lucas. And thus has been a hard one to really wrap a head around- it's up there with the MC's and the nub and how they work together. lol
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