Vergere's True Nature

If you aren't into LotF, then don't read this . . .

Ok, so I have proof that Vergere isn't, as Lumiya called her, a Sith. Ok. According to Lumiya, Sith do what is necessary for the greater good, regardless of its cruelty, correct? Now answer me this: isn't Alpah Red a textbook example of what a Sith would do in Lumiya's book? And yet, when confronted with it, what did Vergere do? She took it so it couldn't be used. I found that revelation odd and comforting at the same time. Thoughts???
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
-The Code of the Sith

In mourning . . . Crying or Very sad

But by preventing the use of Alpha Red she prolonged the suffering of the Jedi, the Sith's archenemy. If the Sith could find a way to use the Vong to hurt or even destroy the Jedi, they wouldn't hesitate to do it. Plus it all falls into the grand scheme. Since Alpha Red wasn't used, Jacen got the spotlight. And now he has been groomed to take over the Galaxy, thus putting the Sith back in control. So it served its purpose.

...yet I can't see why any Sith Lord would have wanted Caedus in power. He's absolutely worthless. So much potential down the drain. Crying or Very sad

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I don't think Vergere would want to be grouped with either the Jedi or the Sith but only as Vergere (as she tells Jacen in Traitor when he asks if she is a Sith.)

As for your point, it is a good question: why would she stop its use? Most Sith won't let any feelings for beings of no importance affect their decisions (like Lumiya's fight against Luke in Tempest in the cantina) but Vergere didn't want the genocide of the Yuuzhan Vong. Yes, she wanted Jacen to rise up and put an end to the war (if she wanted him to do this to become a Sith, I don't see any evidence for that argument) but she didn't keep Alpha Red on the side just in case like other Sith would have, but wanted it completely removed so it could never be used. I don't think Sith believe in "peace, freedom, justice, and security" for the galaxy unless it gives them more power; those who do say those things and believe them are just fallen, lost beings (Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo.) Anyway, those are my thoughts, and since there's no third option of "Vergere is Vergere," I see her more towards being a Jedi so that's my vote.
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"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

But we have to keep ourselves from grouping all Sith together as a classic cliche. Sith and Jedi are just like any other group. Their members vary on their reasons, motivations, and beliefs. They simply share some similarities to the group but are by no way bound to it. I think Lumiya and Vegere are an excellent example of how Sith can break the classic mold formed by the likes of Sidious and Krayt. Sith can seek galactic peace as much as other Sith would want to conquer it. Some with to enslave the Force to their will, while others would want to free it. Also bear in mind that Lumiya was Vegere student, thus some of her views would be different than her master's. Caedus is in turn a byproduct of Lumiya's teachings, which he shares some, but he is also a product of the life he lived before becoming a Sith. Plus there are the very strong influences of Vegere that still linger upon him. In essence, he got a bit of training from both.

One thing that cannot be denied is that Vegere did believe in the Potentium theory, that there is no dark side, only the Force. This is not at odds with the Sith. Their split with the Jedi began because they began using other parts of the Force that the Jedi didn't agree with. They used a broader spectrum of the Force. Vegere may have actually had morals that compelled her to save the Vong from genocide. Perhaps her views of peace in the galaxy stretched as far as to reach all beings, regardless of their origins.

When I read the NJO I always felt that Vegere was a shifty character whose intent was shady and not in line with the views of the Jedi. I would say her actions go beyond the scope of Gray or Rogue Jedi, which brings her into the territory of a Dark Jedi or Sith. Thus the key to labeling her Sith comes about with her relationship with Lumiya. After the fall of Vader and Palpatine, the Sith Order is more or less up for grabs. Anybody can pick up the title and call themselves Sith or try and bring it back the Sith Order. This is how it has always been. When Kaan and his followers died, the Sith were gone. Thus Bane was able to bring it back it whatever shape he so desired. Thus the Sith were redefined. Krayt does the same thing, redefining the Sith and the Order.

Vegere was no different in that she too tried to redefine the Sith Order with Lumiya and Jacen. Either Vegere didn't feel the name was important enough to mention, only that the idea was allowed to flourish, or she ran out of time and had to leave Lumiya to finishing up the work and revealing the truth to Jacen. With Caedus being one faction of the Sith, and Krayt's splinter group on Korriban, the fate of the Sith Order's definition lies in which group survives and dominates the other.
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Master Joined: 22 Mar 2008 Posts: 599

Her having been a Sith makes more sense to me. I didn't like her or her actions in NJO, so it was easy for me to accept the claim that she was a Sith they have given in LotF.

Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4406 Location: Korriban

Look, the fact is that Vergere is her own thing. She isn't Jedi or Sith, or even part of the Gray order. She's just Vergere. I do think (however) that an official Vergere novel needs to be written, just as a Darth Plageuis novel needs to happen. The EU has been very vague with a couple of characters and it needs to change. They need to get a Vergere story out there and official.
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Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

The problem with Vergere is that we don't have a lot of concrete information on her. She's mysterious. But it's worth noting that she has always been dark. We do know that she was once a Jedi. And not only did Lumiya say that Vergere was a Sith, but so did the Sith on Korriban. And if anyone would know if she was a Sith it would be the Sith, either Lumiya or Krayt's order. Plus Vergere herself stated that she was no longer a Jedi. That statement doesn't make her a Sith, but it doesn't help.

One further note of interest is that Sith are usually terrible healers, yet Vergere could heal with her tears. Also she appeared as a Force ghost to Jacen, a feat supposedly not possible for Sith.
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I think Vergere herself was confused about a few things. I think she was sort of on a grey area between the two.
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Smoking kills

Did the Jedi vs Sith book ever state that she was a Sith? Outside cannon like that would pretty much seal the case once and for all. Personally I don't see any problem with her being Sith, I like the idea of more varied Sith outlooks. Just because a person is a Sith doesn't mean they should be evil.
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I see the Sith as much more narrow then Dark Jedi. Sith is a certain branch of Dark Jedi and maybe that's the missing link I've been looking for. I haven't read the Jedi vs Sith book but making Vergere Sith or Jedi doesn't make sense; she seems neutral and leaning towards light but her dark moments is what keeps me from saying all out.

Let me clarify: Vergere is neither Jedi nor Sith but Vergere (her words). As I just said, saying she is either is wrong but saying she leans toward either is okay, and she seems to lean more towards light than dark. Plus, do you believe the words of Lumiya and the hidden Sith? She may have lived amongst them to learn their secrets and philosophy, but she also lived amongst the Jedi and Yuuzhan Vong and she belongs to neither of those groups either.
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"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Honestly, I think they should just leave her as an enigma. Some things are better left to imagination.
_________________

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
-The Code of the Sith

In mourning . . . Crying or Very sad

Padawan Joined: 26 Apr 2008 Posts: 17 Location: Moscow

I suppose that Verger was neither sith nor jedi and she tought Jasen that te Force doesn't have sides but is Unifying

And this is a mistake of authors of LofT to make Verger to be a sith

But... Lumia said Verger told her that she was a sith, May be Verger lies to Lumia?
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"Down here, in the never-ending electric twilight, time had a different meaning altogether. It wasn't something to he scheduled, something to be quantified in terms of seconds, minutes, or hours. It was measured much more simply: you either had enough, or not enough," - Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight