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Palpatine vs Windu (who won if either?)
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Palpatine vs Windu (who won if either?)
 PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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So, we've all see Episode III and we know what the outcome inevitably was for the Jedi. But there's one notion that some love to discuss (myself included): did Palpatine lose on purpose or was Mace really that good?

For me, I'd love to think Palpatine had it all planned out as soon as he knew Anakin Skywalker was on his way over. However, I know how powerful Mace WIndu is with his Vaapad and not even Darth Vader would have an easy time with Windu.

So, in conclusion, I'd say Palpatine did have it all planned out in an outline but only after he sensed Anakin coming to him in the Force. Mace was cautious in the fight because this was a Sith Lord he was fighting and you should never underestimate your opponent, especially a Sith and he did disarm Palpatine efficiently. But what about the timing with Anakin arriving? Did Palpatine allow himself to be disarmed because Anakin was outside the door or was it just coincidence? (Wow, I guess I'm still going over the fight and may never know Smile).

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Last edited by Aush on Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I personally think Windu won that one. Palpatine was good, but so was Kit Fisto and they made him look really bad in that scene. Windu was one of the top duelists in the Jedi Order, and he had the Shatterpoint technique, so that put him up to inevitably beat Palpatine. If not for Anakin's well-timed arrival, the who saga would've been different. Sith would have died out right there. There would have been no need for the chosen one thing cause Anakin wouldn't have needed to destroy the Sith. But yeah, I think Windu won that thing.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Judicar
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I think Palpatine won. Just because of how he is so good at manipulating things, I can't see him losing like that. And plus, he beat Yoda, who's more powerful than Windu.

One of my pet peeves is when people say, "Windu was more powerful than Yoda because he could beat Sidious." No, sorry, but in my book, you're wrong. I like to think that that's the obvious, basic, half-a** Star Wars fan response, but the real fans can delve deeper into the subtleties of it.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Iron Fist
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Sidious let Windu beat him. If I were Sidious, I would realize that, now that the truth is out, the only way to succeed would be to have Anakin as my padawan. So he put himself in a situation where Anakin had to make a choice.

If you read the book (which I did), Mace Windu (who can see "shatterpoints") looks at Anakin and sees that what Anakin chooses to do will decided Palpatine's fate. And as wel all know, Anakin did make a decision. Razz


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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I also think Palpatine won that duel. The Sith from the Rule of Two philosophy were all about stealth, intrigue, and cunning. Palpatine himself was very skilled at planning and manipulation. When he was confronted by the Jedi he wiped them out save for one, Windu. Palpatine knew Skywalker would show up and the best way to get him down the dark path was to have him turn against one of the Jedi Order's most respected members. Thus Palpatine let the battle go on until Anakin showed up, then let the tables turn on him so he would appear as the hapless victim and Windu would look like the aggressor. In fact Mace was feeding off Palpatine's power so much, channeling it back using Vaapad, that rather than bringing the Sith Lord in for trial, as he said he was going to do, he decided to kill him. Had he not said he wanted to bring him in, I would not have though twice about him killing the Sith, but him changing his mind makes me wonder.

Regardless Paplatine put on a show to get Anakin to step up and take a few more steps toward the dark side. Once Anakin struck Windu, Palpatine promptly finished him off with ease.

And to really end the argument, Lucas himself stated that he wanted Palpatine to appear more powerful than even Yoda, he wanted to show just how powerful and threatening the Sith were. Mind you this doesn't directly rank him against Mace, but I do think Yoda is a step above Mace, though maybe not in a prolonged fight.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  BlueX-WingPilot
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Yoda may be more powerful, but Mace has height on his side. Very Happy

At one point close to the end of the fight when Mace has his lightsaber ready to strike Palpatine, for a moment Palpatine looked genuinely afraid that Anakin wouldn't turn. Almost like he had the entire thing planned but it was going to backfire. Perhaps it was a mix of the two, Palpatine planned it and it just happened.
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 PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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huh, never noticed that. I'll have to watch for that next time I see the movie.


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 PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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Whether he planned it or not, I can see the fear. If he didn't plan it, then it is fear. If he planned it, he still went out on a very thin limb because I don't think you could predict exactly when someone you want to join your side will finally do so, no matter how sure you are they are on your side. I know what moment you're talking about and this is why I say it could go either way because there's evidence for both, but I tend to think he did plan it but took a very large risk, especially for a Sith.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Darth Judicar wrote:
And plus, he beat Yoda, who's more powerful than Windu.


He only beat Yoda due to blasting him with lightning at the most opportune moment when Yoda was completing a jump, causing Yoda to lose his lightsaber, in addition to Yoda falling onto a podium without a handrail and the imminent arrival of troopers. When it was just Yoda and Palpatine in the office, he attempted to flee from Yoda.

Darth Skuldren wrote:
And to really end the argument, Lucas himself stated that he wanted Palpatine to appear more powerful than even Yoda, he wanted to show just how powerful and threatening the Sith were.


If we're relying on Lucas' words to "really end the argument", Lucas says on the commentary that Palpatine is overpowered by Mace, and he also says that Palpatine is trying to destroy Mace ( as opposed to merely putting on a show for Anakin ).


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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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Master Windu won the office duel.

Not-a-Master Skywalker's intervention is all that saved California Raisin-esque Palpatine's ass.


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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Clemins
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Darth Judicar wrote:
I think Palpatine won. Just because of how he is so good at manipulating things, I can't see him losing like that. And plus, he beat Yoda, who's more powerful than Windu.

One of my pet peeves is when people say, "Windu was more powerful than Yoda because he could beat Sidious." No, sorry, but in my book, you're wrong. I like to think that that's the obvious, basic, half-a** Star Wars fan response, but the real fans can delve deeper into the subtleties of it.


Ummmm not more powerful or WISE than Yoder.....BUT he WAS better with a saber. His power wasnt so far under Yoda....think of the best 2 MMA fighters, now take one of them who uses his brain and wisdom to make his skills better, now take the other that uses raw athleticism and combined with his skills.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Clemins
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Iron Fist wrote:
Sidious let Windu beat him. If I were Sidious, I would realize that, now that the truth is out, the only way to succeed would be to have Anakin as my padawan. So he put himself in a situation where Anakin had to make a choice.

If you read the book (which I did), Mace Windu (who can see "shatterpoints") looks at Anakin and sees that what Anakin chooses to do will decided Palpatine's fate. And as wel all know, Anakin did make a decision. Razz


Meh, i dont think he "let" him win. Did he put himself in the situation...probably. Palps could see futures better than Yoder himself and sure he saw this, but that dont mean he "wanted" to "lose". He just KNEW....get it?
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Clemins
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[/quote]

If we're relying on Lucas' words to "really end the argument", Lucas says on the commentary that Palpatine is overpowered by Mace, and he also says that Palpatine is trying to destroy Mace ( as opposed to merely putting on a show for Anakin ).[/quote]

Makes sense as well. although Palps "sees" the future so well. Another future could show him "winning" and showing Anakin his "power". I think Papls could have won in different situations and cheating a little more...but not a str8 up fight.
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Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: That's supposed to be a pretty good weapon.
Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Ahh, lotsa plastic. Feels like a BB gun to me. Believe I'm gonna stick with my pistol.
Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: Think we're gonna get close enough to the enemy to use that?
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Remember the future is always in motion. While a Force user can see the future it isn't set in stone. Different actions and choices could set a different future in motion.

Seeing the "real" future is a Force ability called precognition. It isn't the same as the "standard" vision, and it was a very rare ability. Master Sifo-Dyas was one of the few who possessed precognition.

As for Palps seeing the future: he didn't see his own death at the hands of Vader. So he only saw possible futures. He manipulated events to bring about the future he wanted.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Clemins
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Cerrinea wrote:
Remember the future is always in motion. While a Force user can see the future it isn't set in stone. Different actions and choices could set a different future in motion.

Seeing the "real" future is a Force ability called precognition. It isn't the same as the "standard" vision, and it was a very rare ability. Master Sifo-Dyas was one of the few who possessed precognition.

As for Palps seeing the future: he didn't see his own death at the hands of Vader. So he only saw possible futures. He manipulated events to bring about the future he wanted.


Of course it is motion, and of course there are different possibilities and of course Papls could manipulate the events to some degree. With the Vader thing...well he was not looking it that direction when seeing the "moving" future. You really believe Palps did not have precognition?
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Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Seen the new rifles too, the M-16.
Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: That's supposed to be a pretty good weapon.
Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Ahh, lotsa plastic. Feels like a BB gun to me. Believe I'm gonna stick with my pistol.
Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: Think we're gonna get close enough to the enemy to use that?
Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: What do you think, sir?


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