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S3 - Episode 15: Overlords
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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No, I'd say any post about the Force or the Chosen One is on topic for this thread. Smile


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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:47 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Well, the episode seems to portray the light and dark side as creation and destruction, as exemplified by the planet Mortis itself. The plants bloom and grow during the day and die during the night. It reminds me of a scene on pages 144-146 of Traitor:

Quote:
Vergere touched his arm, and with a gesture directed his attention toward a thicket of what looked like coniferous shrubs--though the electrobinoculars' range and azimuth display indicated the smallest of them stood more than ten meters tall. On the slope around the thicket, a small herd of agile hoofed reptilelike creatures sprang from rock to rock, cropping nervously at the sparse moss. An instant later he found out what had been making them so nervous: one of those massive bipedal tentacle-faced predators lunged out of the shrub thicket with astonishing speed.

It seized the nearest of the hoofed reptilians in powerful prehensile forepaws, its blade-tipped mouth-tentacles stabbing and sawing to swiftly slay and disjoint the captured animal, carving it into bite-sized hunks. As the rest of the herd bounded away, the predator settled down in the slanting sunlight to devour its kill.

"That is why this place is so dangerous," Vergere said with a hint of a challenging smile. "It is filled with what you would call the dark side. I should say: the dark side is very, very powerful here, more powerful than anywhere else on this planet. As powerful, perhaps, as it is anywhere in the galaxy."

Jacen lowered the electrobinoculars, blinking.

"That's not the dark side," he said. "A predator hunts to feed itself and its family. That's just nature."

"And the dark side isn't? I thought the danger of the dark side was that it is natural: that's why it's easier than the light, yes?"


I find it interesting that technically speaking, predation is both of the light and dark side, two sides to the same coin, the Force. It's destructive in taking life, but also necessary for nourishment. "The Force is one."

I also think it brings to mind the quote "Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force are they." Was Yoda being truthful with Luke? Was he being cautious? Do emotions directly correlate to the Force, or do those specific emotions merely lead to destruction? There's clearly prudence to Jedi stoicism with regard to the Force, but I think it's reasonable to ask whether those emotions alone are the dark side.

There's quite a few quotes on the subject from Cloak of Deception, the Episode I novel, The Unifying Force, Destiny's Way, Shatterpoint, and Traitor that I will have to dig up.


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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'd be hesitant to accept that the yin and yang view of the Force is correct just yet. Just think about things like Traitor and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor- it seemed like everything we knew about the Force was going to change then to. Things are probably not what they seem.
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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I don't think anything has changed. And with regard to those two novels, I don't think they changed anything either. The only thing that changes is our perception. Nothing in the episode really conflicts what I thought about the Force previously, which was rooted in the prequels and their spinoff novels as well as the NJO.

I don't think the dark side is those emotions. I think acting on those emotions can lead to the dark side. Notice that Yoda says in Episode I that fear is the path to the dark side.


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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Oh, are we not doing the spoiler thing? Fair enough. I think I'm the last one on here to watch it most times, anyway.

Well, I don't think there's a canonically correct stance - either balance between dark and light, or darkness being eradicated - is there? With one official source backing one, and another backing the other. Now, don't know where they're going with this, but it looks like they're still not clearing it up - which is fine, it provides a lot to think about, it's just annoying when you try to figure out which one you should believe to be true.

As for the episode itself, it was okay. Well, I liked it. No idea why. I guess because it didn't go too much against what I already knew. As for Qui-Gon? I can actually believe that he wouldn't think it was really him. I just thought that, at the time he'd readily think it was his old master, but afterwards, after hearing about Anakin's apparition of his mother, he'd not entirely believe it to be true, that it was simply a trick. As I watched it, I remembered Ewan's face in episode III, when Yoda told him about his future training, that look of surprise and seemingly contemplative eyes. Retroactive fitting, I know, but re-watching it in my mind's eye I could easily think that he was reliving his night in that cave.

The only thing that didn't ring absolutely true was when the old man said only the Chosen One could have the power to rescue them both. To me, being to Chosen One was never about power, but rather being the person that made the choices, the person who was there, to bring balance to the Force - through his actions, not his power.

But, earlier, when I said how many times can they bring balance, was referring to the other times where it looks like someone has done so - most noticeably during KOTOR II, I believe.

I ask you, when has his absolute power come in to play? I mean directly. I believe it was only a tool of the Force to get him recognised, but beyond that it wasn't used much. In episode I, he gets recognised as very powerful, yes, but was it raw power that made him win the podrace, or simple basic skill in the Force, combined wih Qui-Gon's trust in him. I feel that having someone's faith in you is more potent than any measure of skill or luck. After all, he was the only force sensitive in that race. Who's to say Obi-Wan could not ave easily won it?

In the battle above Naboo? Did he force the shields down, destroy the Trade Federation ship with a wink of his eye? Or was it his ability, or some could say luck, to merely survive?

In episode II, he took out an entire village of Tusken Raiders. Through refined absolute power? Or was the element o surprise and his will and bloodlust and ire and competency with a lightsabre enough to pull him through?

Later, in the arena, he does well to last as long as he did, but so did others, and he was supposedly much more powerful than those - even Padme. I think it was merely skill and, again, his luck to get though unscathed that saw him through - but that didn't last long against Dooku, did it?

In episode III he was a great warrior, the best starpilot in the galaxy. But was that a demostration of his powr? He was a seasoned veteran, who honed his natural skill through years of training and battle combat. As did Wedge, and he had none of this power. He defeated Dooku, at last, but I saw no power, only skill that most weaponsmasters have. Besides, all those hours of frustration of bickering with Ahsoka had to be let out somewhere. Poor Dooku was simply the unlucky outlet.

Later, he takes the fight to the Temple - against younglngs and old Jedi. Yes. He needed a lot of power there, didn't he?

And against Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Okay. He may have had power flowing through him, fueled by hate and anger, but it got him nowhere but a walking life support suit.

In the dark times, he fought the last of the Jedi. He fought with Legions of stormtroopers against singular Jedi. But he had the suit, so he must be powerful enough to overcome that, surely? Ah, but this he overcame through training.

In episode IV he fought Ben who, I'm convinced, put on a very half hearted show. He knew Luke needed something to drive him on to become a Jedi, and sacrificed himself.

And, later, in the Trench he was taken out by a green pilot. Very powerful.

He commanded with an iron fist, but his power was untested in those years, save for a half trained Jedi.

And, finally, episode VI, he fought his son. The irrascible scamp beat him, of course, but that is not the point. Because I direct your attention to the death of the Emperor. He did not use unlimited power to defeat hm in a duel that lit the heavens. He threw him down a shaft. He used not a jot of his considerable power to bring balance to the Force there.

It was his choices, I believe, that made him the Chosen One, not his power. He chose to race, and his skill got him through. He chose (albeit in a roundabout way) to fly, and luck (or the will of the Force?) got him through.
He chose to kill those Raiders. Skill, yes, but anger gave him the day. He chose to kill them, just as his skill saved him in the arena, fight Dooku, and he chose to deny the teachings of the Jedi and marry Padme.
He chose the Dark Side ad killed the Jedi, chose to turn his back on his wife and friend.
He chose to kill the Jedi and chose personal power.
He chose to redeem himself and defeat the Emperor.
Who's to say that any other Jedi, one less powerful but sufficiently trained, would not make the same choices and thus bring balance to the Force?
So, yeah, that bit about only the Chosen One being powerful enouh to sve his two friends? Didn't annoy me much at all Laughing
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Beautifully written, Life! I have only one complaint.

Life Is The Path wrote:
And, later, in the Trench he was taken out by a green pilot.


This, my good sir, is most definitely not true. Han Solo is anything but a green pilot.
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Indeed he isn't, but I didn't mean him. The TIE pilot next to him, who got skittish and accidentally rammed his TIE into Vader's when Han showed up.
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Life is like the Force - Luke Skywalker, Crucible. Damn straight I am.


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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:09 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Ah, well...I suppose this is correct. From a certain point of view. Wink
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:20 am Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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I don't think they're gods. I think they're pretenders.


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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Ah, well...I suppose this is correct. From a certain point of view. Wink




A visual reminder of what happened, if you need it Wink

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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Life is like the Force - Luke Skywalker, Crucible. Damn straight I am.


Last edited by Life Is The Path on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I will argue that you could make the point that Vader did exercise considerable power in enduring the Emperor's Force lightning to such a point, that he could physically grab the Emperor, unopposed, pick him up, walk with him over to the shaft, and throw him in without the Emperor being able to stop him. Purely assumption and personal opinion, but I like to the think that Vader used a remarkable feat of Force endurance and Force blocking to accomplish that.

But that's probably just because I like to embellish the moment. Cool
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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VileZero wrote:
I don't think they're gods. I think they're pretenders.

I agree. There's something fishy about them. *posts non-exisitng Ackbar emoticon*
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