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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  comanderbly
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I think Sue's choice of words were not ideal but hardly worth the extensive blog and questioning her on a professional level. I would rather have her interact with fans than not interact with fans.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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LivingJediDream wrote:
I'm sorry, but I find this to be kind of odd in that a few people here trash on The Clone Wars, but since Lex isn't happy with the way LucasBooks has handled FOTJ he needs to "Either enjoy Star Wars -- or find a new hobby"?


First off, I made that statement you quoted - and I don't trash on TCW. If someone's going to criticize Dave Filoni in public, with the knowledge that he'll have to respond and apologize to appear professional (even though he may not owe anyone an apology at all), I'd have a problem with it. If all you're going to do is criticize TCW, to the point that you are "considering leaving" - then please just leave. You're obviously not happy with the product, and you're only annoying those who are satisfied by complaining about it constantly online. Don't try to burden us with the struggles of buying books or not buying books. Figure it out on your own, and do it by yourself. This constant negativity and "oh, poor me! Star Wars just isn't how I want it to be, I MIGHT stop spending money on it" is just silly and shows a pretty good example of someone lacking self control. Who in the world spends time and money on a hobby that they don't even freaking enjoy? Get it? Enjoy Star Wars - or stop spending money on it, criticizing it online, and being unhappy.

It's like buying season tickets to go see a terrible sports team. You go home disappointed and miserable every night, but for some reason you keep spending money and going to the game, where you MAY be happy now and then, but will spend the majority of your time upset. Then you tell your friends and other people at the game that you don't even know about how bad it is. You decide to share your problems with a perfectly happy fan who's just enjoying the game because he enjoys it - even if the team stinks. You decide to break away from this guys brainwashed happiness and speak out, not caring if you annoy the other fan and ruin an experience that he was perfectly fine with. "Hey, this team sucks. They really need to get better. If they keep making me miserable at all times much longer, I MIGHT just stop giving them my money. Maybe. It's just so hard to stop spending money on something I don't like." After that, you go online and start a sports blog about how terrible your favorite team is. You even write a letter to the owner of the franchise about how much they stink. Wait, scratch that. It no longer fits the current situation. A letter would at least be private and give the owner a chance to not respond if he didn't want to. Sue wasn't given that pleasure - had she not responded, the calls that she was not being professional would have only increased and expanded to other places. FGC knew what they were doing by posting in the VIP thread. Regardless of their claims that all they want to do is reach Del Rey and break away from the classic opinion from the other fans, they seem pretty concerned by it. If they don't care what the classic fanboy opinion (TFN, NJOE, EUC) is, why search their forums for support? If they just want to break from the mold and crusade for a better Star Wars book by taking the issue to the "Powers that Be", what does it matter if other fans decide to support them? Their true agenda is not to improve Lucasbooks and Del Rey. It's to make a statement about themselves.


Last edited by Old Master Ben on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Optician
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As far as the question of what Lex has done wrong, I've responded in length in the blog.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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LivingJediDream wrote:
What's the point of trying to discredit him, though? I don't think anyone is going to change their minds about it.


That's just the problem about arguments with Lex. They can go on and on on forums and there is no movement except if the other(s) give up. There's no point arguing with Lex, and here Lex put Rostoni in a position where she could either a)ignore Lex which would probably mean that Lex would post about that or b)argue against Lex which would just look bad or c)give up, which leaves Lex looking good in the eyes of many and feel good and leaves her again looking bad and weak to many fans who read the exchange. Lex put himself in a win-win situation.


Last edited by Rouge77 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Well said, Rogue. Criticizing Sue and Star Wars is not a problem. Putting Sue in the position that Rogue described is. That's what I have issue with regarding the original situation. My more recent issues come from the comments and content of the FGC blog.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Master Optician
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In addition, I have issue with them pretty much DEMANDING that something be done, or else. There is a serious entitlement issue among many Star Wars fans. I think "radicals" is a good term. When you get to the point that you're demanding that certain changes be made within a franchise because you're personally not satisfied with the product, that's above and beyond not acceptable.

Yeah, I agree, if you're at the point to where you're constantly griping, moaning and complaining about something, give it up. That seems like a better alternative than residing in a sad little corner of the internet, surfacing only when you feel it's time to belch another complaint.


Last edited by Master Optician on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Old Master Ben wrote:
LivingJediDream wrote:
I'm sorry, but I find this to be kind of odd in that a few people here trash on The Clone Wars, but since Lex isn't happy with the way LucasBooks has handled FOTJ he needs to "Either enjoy Star Wars -- or find a new hobby"?


First off, I made that statement you quoted - and I don't trash on TCW. If someone's going to criticize Dave Filoni in public, with the knowledge that he'll have to respond and apologize to appear professional (even though he may not owe anyone an apology at all), I'd have a problem with it. If all you're going to do is criticize TCW, to the point that you are "considering leaving" - then please just leave. You're obviously not happy with the product, and you're only annoying those who are satisfied by complaining about it constantly online. Don't try to burden us with the struggles of buying books or not buying books. Figure it out on your own, and do it by yourself. This constant negativity and "oh, poor me! Star Wars just isn't how I want it to be, I MIGHT stop spending money on it" is just silly and shows a pretty good example of someone lacking self control. Who in the world spends time and money on a hobby that they don't even freaking enjoy? Get it? Enjoy Star Wars - or stop spending money on it, criticizing it online, and being unhappy.

It's like buying season tickets to go see a terrible sports team. You go home disappointed and miserable every night, but for some reason you keep spending money and going to the game, where you MAY be happy now and then, but will spend the majority of your time upset. Then you tell your friends and other people at the game that you don't even know about how bad it is. You decide to share your problems with a perfectly happy fan who's just enjoying the game because he enjoys it - even if the team stinks. You decide to break away from this guys brainwashed happiness and speak out, not caring if you annoy the other fan and ruin an experience that he was perfectly fine with. "Hey, this team sucks. They really need to get better. If they keep making me miserable at all times much longer, I MIGHT just stop giving them my money. Maybe. It's just so hard to stop spending money on something I don't like." After that, you go online and start a sports blog about how terrible your favorite team is. You even write a letter to the owner of the franchise about how much they stink. Wait, scratch that. It no longer fits the current situation. A letter would at least be private and give the owner a chance to not respond if he didn't want to. Sue wasn't given that pleasure - had she not responded, the calls that she was not being professional would have only increased and expanded to other places. FGC knew what they were doing by posting in the VIP thread. Regardless of their claims that all they want to do is reach Del Rey and break away from the classic opinion from the other fans, they seem pretty concerned by it. If they don't care what the classic fanboy opinion (TFN, NJOE, EUC) is, why search their forums for support? If they just want to break from the mold and crusade for a better Star Wars book by taking the issue to the "Powers that Be", what does it matter if other fans decide to support them? Their true agenda is not to improve Lucasbooks and Del Rey. It's to make a statement about themselves.


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've mostly soured on the publishing side of the Expanded Universe now, but I still follow Star Wars because I enjoy watching TCW and playing TFU, plus I re-read the old stuff I enjoy. I also am still reading FOTJ, despite that I feel the "flagship" novels have gotten progressively worse since The Unifying Force. I've written a few posts about that here, although I try to be constructive about it. I also try not to post in threads like the Vortex thread that I thought it was awful or anything like that.

I know it can be disturbing to see something you enjoy be trashed by someone else, so I try not to do it.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Master Optician wrote:
In addition, I have issue with them pretty much DEMANDING that something be done, or else. There is a serious entitlement issue among many Star Wars fans. I think "radicals" is a good term. When you get to the point that you're demanding that certain changes be made within a franchise because you're personally not satisfied with the product, that's above and beyond acceptable.

Yeah, I agree, if you're at the point to where you're constantly griping, moaning and complaining about something, give it up. That seems like a better alternative than residing in a sad little corner of the internet, surfacing only when you feel it's time to belch another complaint.


It's their attitude that bugs me. They act like they are brave individuals who are risking everything to break away from the classic fanboy mold and proudly be vocal about what they dislike. I have a secret for everyone. Lean in close.

*Whisper* EUCantina has published negative things about Del Rey and Lucasfilm's products before.

Gasp! It seems that people have previously dared to not be Lucas yes-men and break away from the classic mold. There's just one difference. We've criticized while pointing out positives, and while being realistic in our complaints and expectations, and we have never, ever, done anything that could be deemed disrespectful to the people who work at Del Rey and Lucasfilm. Does that make us yes-men? Um, no. Does that still mean we have an open mind and know that every part of Star Wars isn't going to be enjoyable and loved? Yep. But do we go to the extreme of trying to use our platform to tell the world and the VIPs how bad their product is and how disgusted we are? Never. I think FOTJ and LOTF are bad. I can't get into them. Instead of doing the following: A) Paying money continually for a product that I've never enjoyed. B) Deciding that the people responsible for this bad book must be dealt with and addressed in public, I C) Don't buy the product anymore, and don't worry about it. My pockets are more full and my mind is happier because I didn't just spend money on something that I did not even like, and something that I haven't liked in a while (post-ROTJ EU).


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Quote:
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've mostly soured on the publishing side of the Expanded Universe now, but I still follow Star Wars because I enjoy watching TCW and playing TFU, plus I re-read the old stuff I enjoy. I also am still reading FOTJ, despite that I feel the "flagship" novels have gotten progressively worse since The Unifying Force. I've written a few posts about that here, although I try to be constructive about it. I also try not to post in threads like the Vortex thread that I thought it was awful or anything like that.


That's what I'm talking about. There are parts of Star Wars that you enjoy, but you don't feel the need to focus on the parts that you dislike. That's the opposite of what's going on at that blog. And I still stick to the point that if you don't like Star Wars, find a new hobby. You like Star Wars. You can enjoy parts like TCW and TFU. But why are you buying the FOTJ books if you've soured on the publishing side? Will you buy the next FOTJ novel after not liking Vortex? If so, why?


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Quote:
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've mostly soured on the publishing side of the Expanded Universe now, but I still follow Star Wars because I enjoy watching TCW and playing TFU, plus I re-read the old stuff I enjoy. I also am still reading FOTJ, despite that I feel the "flagship" novels have gotten progressively worse since The Unifying Force. I've written a few posts about that here, although I try to be constructive about it. I also try not to post in threads like the Vortex thread that I thought it was awful or anything like that.


That's what I'm talking about. There are parts of Star Wars that you enjoy, but you don't feel the need to focus on the parts that you dislike. That's the opposite of what's going on at that blog. And I still stick to the point that if you don't like Star Wars, find a new hobby. You like Star Wars. You can enjoy parts like TCW and TFU. But why are you buying the FOTJ books if you've soured on the publishing side? Will you buy the next FOTJ novel after not liking Vortex? If so, why?


I enjoy reading about Han, Luke, and Leia. I also liked reading about Jacen. I thought LOTF was bad for a few different reasons which I won't go over. FOTJ isn't "worse," I mean, I don't like how Luke is characterized with regard to a specific thing he says that I think flies in the face of who Luke Skywalker is and his general attitude in that regard, Han and Leia aren't really characterized much at all, and I don't like the basic nine book series model, but ultimately I'm reading FOTJ because it's all there is with regard to continuing to read about Luke.

I suppose it's not so much that I don't "enjoy" the books, so much as I don't like the direction they've taken the "series" in the sense that the continuing adventures of Han, Luke, and Leia is a series. I enjoyed Abyss a lot and it actually got me pretty excited about the second trilogy. Heck, I think Betrayal is a really good SW book too, and I really enjoyed Bloodlines.

I'm also a completionist in the sense that I've read almost every single Star Wars novel that's been published, and a lot of the comics.


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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Well, to a point I agree. Take TCW for example. I'd like it to be better, and I want it to be better, but I've never, and will never demand it to be better. I'll beg, sure. Plead, yes, pray, absolutely, but never demand. I know that I'm simply not that important. They're not going to respond to a 'make it better or I'll walk' thing. That's perhaps the one thing I truly hate about being a SW fan. Having to put up with people who feel they're so entitled as to get to that point.

What surprised me, though, is that I hadn't read Sue's answer, instead I read Lex's reply and Sue's response*. To be honest? I thought Lex was taking the whole thing far too seriously. It was an informal, off hand comment that Sue is known to have made in the past. It's part of why I like her. Instead of being very stiff and uptight and cold, like Lex suggests, she's warm and friendly, and it provides a better service, as well as representing the company in the same light. I don't want cold, faceless people. I want more Sues!

But because I read her and Lex's replies first? I was expecting blood. I was expecting Sue to have said something so gross and rude that it was to be deleted from the thread. Lex's response, I feel, was simply overblown. That's why I'm agreeing with MO (great to see you here, old sport!) and OMB. It smacks of own-agenda-conveying (shh! I know that's not a word!) and 'headline-grabbing' oppurtunism.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:12 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Besides FGC's untactful way of expressing her self.

I found Sue's response funny however unintentional, I never once saw it as reason to fire off like they did. I do find the "spoilers" dropped in the blurb for the book a little appalling.

I mean the books called conviction yet they tell us Tahiri's convicted right there in the blurb, we also know Daala is overthrown by the Jedi. So does this mean they shouldn't be treated as spoilers since it's in the blurb? (I get needing parts of the plot to sell the book, but some of the main ones? Makes me worried that unlike Vortex - this one might not have as much going for it....)


I mean on one hand I could see them doing that blurb like AFTER the book came out...
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Ah, but remember, someone accidentally, in an over-excited haze, put up the blurb before schedule on the (I believe) Del Ray website. They probably felt that since it was already leaked they might as well update it. Besides, it's nothing new. They often give up minor spoilers to tell us what happens in the first section, to hook us. I'm also reminded by an X-Wing novel in which they spoiled the fact that Corran was Force sensitive in the blurb.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:19 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Old Master Ben wrote:
LivingJediDream wrote:
I'm sorry, but I find this to be kind of odd in that a few people here trash on The Clone Wars, but since Lex isn't happy with the way LucasBooks has handled FOTJ he needs to "Either enjoy Star Wars -- or find a new hobby"?


First off, I made that statement you quoted - and I don't trash on TCW. If someone's going to criticize Dave Filoni in public, with the knowledge that he'll have to respond and apologize to appear professional (even though he may not owe anyone an apology at all), I'd have a problem with it. If all you're going to do is criticize TCW, to the point that you are "considering leaving" - then please just leave. You're obviously not happy with the product, and you're only annoying those who are satisfied by complaining about it constantly online. Don't try to burden us with the struggles of buying books or not buying books. Figure it out on your own, and do it by yourself. This constant negativity and "oh, poor me! Star Wars just isn't how I want it to be, I MIGHT stop spending money on it" is just silly and shows a pretty good example of someone lacking self control. Who in the world spends time and money on a hobby that they don't even freaking enjoy? Get it? Enjoy Star Wars - or stop spending money on it, criticizing it online, and being unhappy.

It's like buying season tickets to go see a terrible sports team. You go home disappointed and miserable every night, but for some reason you keep spending money and going to the game, where you MAY be happy now and then, but will spend the majority of your time upset. Then you tell your friends and other people at the game that you don't even know about how bad it is. You decide to share your problems with a perfectly happy fan who's just enjoying the game because he enjoys it - even if the team stinks. You decide to break away from this guys brainwashed happiness and speak out, not caring if you annoy the other fan and ruin an experience that he was perfectly fine with. "Hey, this team sucks. They really need to get better. If they keep making me miserable at all times much longer, I MIGHT just stop giving them my money. Maybe. It's just so hard to stop spending money on something I don't like." After that, you go online and start a sports blog about how terrible your favorite team is. You even write a letter to the owner of the franchise about how much they stink. Wait, scratch that. It no longer fits the current situation. A letter would at least be private and give the owner a chance to not respond if he didn't want to. Sue wasn't given that pleasure - had she not responded, the calls that she was not being professional would have only increased and expanded to other places. FGC knew what they were doing by posting in the VIP thread. Regardless of their claims that all they want to do is reach Del Rey and break away from the classic opinion from the other fans, they seem pretty concerned by it. If they don't care what the classic fanboy opinion (TFN, NJOE, EUC) is, why search their forums for support? If they just want to break from the mold and crusade for a better Star Wars book by taking the issue to the "Powers that Be", what does it matter if other fans decide to support them? Their true agenda is not to improve Lucasbooks and Del Rey. It's to make a statement about themselves.

Very well-said, Ben. I'll gripe for discussion's sake but only very rarely will my gripes actually hinder my enjoyment of Star Wars.
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