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Han Solo - A Ruined Character?
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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@Padme: Watch Dollhouse, its actually quite intelligent. Like all Joss Whedon shows, its underrated.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Wait. Wasn't this a Han Solo forum? Don't make me do mod stuff. Wink Find a TV forum for this discussion, please. Thanks guys!


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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Caedus_16 wrote:
@Padme: Watch Dollhouse, its actually quite intelligent. Like all Joss Whedon shows, its underrated.


I find the concept quite insulting, though.

Oh. Right. Han forum. He shot first. It was awesome. Lucas changed it. Not awesome.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Han Solo! Forever will I be a fan. Forever and always.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:20 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Wait. Wasn't this a Han Solo forum? Don't make me do mod stuff. Wink Find a TV forum for this discussion, please. Thanks guys!


We're all killing time while you nay sayers watch the source material so you can properly debate the subject Wink Laughing

When you've seen it you too will understand how Mal is Han2.0 in a way Dash Rendar could only wish!
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:07 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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VileZero wrote:
Well, the special editions kill Han's credibility as a badass when he no longer shoots first. He's still a decent scoundrel, but I really feel like he mellowed out in ESB and ROTJ.

I love Captain Mal, and he's a solid scoundrel and smuggler in Firefly and Serenity. Now, could his character have changed with huge exposure like Han in the EU? Certainly! But as it stands, I think Mal is a better representative of the scoundrel than Han is.


To be fair, there'd only been one season. Whedon had planned many more seasons, so it's possible that Mal would have evolved as a character. Besides, Mal only had to take care of his ship, take jobs for food and repairs, and that was his lot. He could afford to stay the scoundrel. Han, though, had a lot more pushing in on his wayward life. He got caught up in a rescue attempt, was on the run from the Empire, so stuck with his friends. Of course, I don't need to tell you everything else that has been forced on him. The point was that it was thrust upon him. Circumstances dictated the change. Besides, Han has had longer to be a scoundrel.
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:39 am Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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I liked Han Solo's character evolution through the 3 movies, it worked for me.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:20 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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wookie_inked wrote:
I liked Han Solo's character evolution through the 3 movies, it worked for me.


While I can't speak for Vile- I too found it worked, but had Han shot first it would have been more profound for his character.

I say this in the sense of not knowing him and right away we see he will MURDER someone to save his own skin- come movie's end he turns back and takes himself, his ship and Chewie back into the fight instead of running and saving his skin- this to me was a profound character growth moment.

But when the scene changes it changed how I'm to look at Han from that scene. Now I see he's a regular guy hard up on his luck with people trying to kill him. He will do what it takes but nobly.

So at the end of the movie- I would EXPECT him to turn back- cause it's the RIGHT thing to do. There is less character growth in the scene now because he's already been established as a "good guy" the only thing we have now to prove Han takes care of himself- is Luke stating his opinion as fact- it WAS FACT BEFORE. Now it is just a character's POV with little to reference it to for the viewer. Yes it worked, and no it didn't take too much away from Han that the other 2 films show us something else.

But I do think that my impression of Han based off that scene varies significantly.

Now as to Mal- he was a very religious man at the start of the show. But the loss to the Alliance in Serenity Valley took that away from him. He only looks to a few things- himself, his ship, and his crew. Anything get in the way of that or threaten that and he will kill it. But he's the scoundrel with a heart of gold. So unlike Han Malcom is a character who struggles with his good self pretending to be bad- which I always felt was very much like young Han portrayed by the EU.
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:40 am Reply with quote  
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  comanderbly
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Han and Mal were headed in different directions I think. Once Han took up with Luke and Leia he had a family to watch over. He couldn't leave Luke to face the Death Star alone and he really put up no fight in ESB once he was captured. In ANH he was willing to try fighting his way out of the Death Star once they were locked in the tractor beam. Once we hit ROTJ Han is willing to lead a tough mission as a general. Basically once Han hooks up with Luke and Leia his life has a direction beyond the role of scoundrel.

Mal on the other hand is trying to figure out his place. Clearly he has a lot of hatred when it comes to the Alliance. He seems to connect with various members of his crew, and is protective of them. He is also willing to literally throw them out of his moving ship if they cross the line. He is also willing to put them in harms way.

Like most people have said Mal is struggling with himself internally and externally. Han already believes in himself and is looking for something to believe in and finds it in Luke and Leia. I don't think Han was ruined so much as he grew up. I think if anything he is miss-used in the EU.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:46 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Though if one thinks about the line change in RotJ when Lando's off the side of the skiff and Han's hanging about to shoot the sarlacc tentacle and says "It's all right, I can see a lot better now" rather than "It's all right, trust me." which was there before.

If we look at Han shooting first as I shown my POV above then the Trust me line is priceless! Sure Han we'll trust you.... But now it's again made him less of a "what's he going to do" kind of guy, and more a straight forward hero type like Luke minus the Force.

Not that there is anything wrong with this. But it did and does alter my perceptions of the character that one scene. So for me I'll always view the Character as shooting first.


comanderbly wrote:
Han and Mal were headed in different directions I think. Once Han took up with Luke and Leia he had a family to watch over. He couldn't leave Luke to face the Death Star alone and he really put up no fight in ESB once he was captured. In ANH he was willing to try fighting his way out of the Death Star once they were locked in the tractor beam. Once we hit ROTJ Han is willing to lead a tough mission as a general. Basically once Han hooks up with Luke and Leia his life has a direction beyond the role of scoundrel.

Mal on the other hand is trying to figure out his place. Clearly he has a lot of hatred when it comes to the Alliance. He seems to connect with various members of his crew, and is protective of them. He is also willing to literally throw them out of his moving ship if they cross the line. He is also willing to put them in harms way.

Like most people have said Mal is struggling with himself internally and externally. Han already believes in himself and is looking for something to believe in and finds it in Luke and Leia. I don't think Han was ruined so much as he grew up. I think if anything he is miss-used in the EU.


I agree with your assessment of Han but I didn't see his change as immediate. Which appealed to me at the time I watched it. (And again the changes don't upset me. I just like to discuss how they change outlooks) Wink

How do you feel Han was miss-used in the EU? I have found Han to be one of my favorite characters in the EU, every time he comes in I'm bound to enjoy that part of the book it seems.
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:57 am Reply with quote  
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  comanderbly
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I think that Han has been miss-used mostly in FOTJ and Legacy. I enjoyed Han in the X-Wing series when he showed up and I felt that role suited him well. Really its the family struggles that I feel have led to my opinion. The loss of Chewy, Anakin, and Jacen have bogged him down emotionally. It's just such a bummer ya know? I could have seen Han doing something like running the Errant Venture in his later years, now he's trying to keep his family together through a tragedy. Again.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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comanderbly wrote:
I think that Han has been miss-used mostly in FOTJ and Legacy. I enjoyed Han in the X-Wing series when he showed up and I felt that role suited him well. Really its the family struggles that I feel have led to my opinion. The loss of Chewy, Anakin, and Jacen have bogged him down emotionally. It's just such a bummer ya know? I could have seen Han doing something like running the Errant Venture in his later years, now he's trying to keep his family together through a tragedy. Again.


Ok I have to agree with FotJ, but I'm not so sure about LotF, I've found his character to be great in the scenes he's in. My only complaint there really is that he's not in the books more. I think for me it's Leia. I enjoy how she's Han's new partner in everything, but at the same time her past IMO is misused by the authors. They could be doing much more with her character with the recent events that would fit better.

But I'm still enjoying LotF. In Fact Vortex has climbed to my second favorite Denning Novel next to Star by Star. And I loved Han's scenes in that novel! (It's so weird saying novel to a book I read on kindle for PC) Laughing

I do think the time right after Jacen's Death was handled poorly- I had high hopes for Mill. Falcon. (Closest to Puss in boots sad eyes we've got)
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  comanderbly
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
comanderbly wrote:
I think that Han has been miss-used mostly in FOTJ and Legacy. I enjoyed Han in the X-Wing series when he showed up and I felt that role suited him well. Really its the family struggles that I feel have led to my opinion. The loss of Chewy, Anakin, and Jacen have bogged him down emotionally. It's just such a bummer ya know? I could have seen Han doing something like running the Errant Venture in his later years, now he's trying to keep his family together through a tragedy. Again.


Ok I have to agree with FotJ, but I'm not so sure about LotF, I've found his character to be great in the scenes he's in. My only complaint there really is that he's not in the books more. I think for me it's Leia. I enjoy how she's Han's new partner in everything, but at the same time her past IMO is misused by the authors. They could be doing much more with her character with the recent events that would fit better.

But I'm still enjoying LotF. In Fact Vortex has climbed to my second favorite Denning Novel next to Star by Star. And I loved Han's scenes in that novel! (It's so weird saying novel to a book I read on kindle for PC) Laughing

I do think the time right after Jacen's Death was handled poorly- I had high hopes for Mill. Falcon. (Closest to Puss in boots sad eyes we've got)


Hmmm, you make a good point Han had some good moments in Legacy now that I think about it. Once Jacen went to the darkside I think he could have played a much better and more active role in the story. What I miss about Leia is that she is a minor (almost absent) part of the political piece of the story(s). I wonder if that has to do with the characters working together more often.

I just have not seen Han on the same level as Leia and Luke in the post-ROTJ stories. Its hard to point to specific stories, outside his family tragedy, that give me that feeling. Han has a lot of good moments here are there, which is why I feel its more miss-use than being ruined.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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I liked the Courtship of Princess Leia

<crickets>


Han Solo was used well in that book, same with the Corellian trilogy. But then, of ALL storylines, that one needed Han to be handled correctly, it would have been ironic if the Corellian smuggler had sucked in those books. lol


Planet of Twlilight, Ghosts of Tattooine, Crystal Star, Shadows of Mindoor, Dark Saber... all rotten books, all used all the characters badly including Han Solo.


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