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General Complaint About The Old Republic
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Touche. Wink
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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LivingJediDream wrote:
We should speak like characters in a Zahn novel and say "Point."


The couterpoint to that argument is of course that most people find it annoying Razz


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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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That's because they are not as sharp as Zahn fans.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:00 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Well, we could always add 'Fact' instead. Because that's not at all annoying.


And, sorry to disprove your point, Henning, but I could have answered every single one of your questions without looking it up on the interweb. On an unrelated note, the fleur de lis on the coat of arms was to denote the Royal family had a claim to lands in France*, not that they had holdings at the time.
*France was a very fluid concept at the time. Brittany, Calais, Aquitaine and I believe Champagne all held the right to be called English land. In the beginning, France was simply the land around Paris. As the Parisians became more powerful, they acquired more land, until wars with various English kings broke out, until, eventually, they came to hold all of France.

And on an in-universe point. Wasn't the Holonet made on Palpatine's orders, back when he was just a senator?
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Life Is The Path wrote:
*France was a very fluid concept at the time. Brittany, Calais, Aquitaine and I believe Champagne all held the right to be called English land. In the beginning, France was simply the land around Paris. As the Parisians became more powerful, they acquired more land, until wars with various English kings broke out, until, eventually, they came to hold all of France.


France grew out of the kingdom of the West Franks, created in the treaty of Verdun in 843 which gave also birth to Germany. Splitting of the Frankish Empire between the three surviving sons of Louis the Pious(d.840) gave it's western parts to Charles the Bald(d.877).

At first the power of the king held in all those areas except Celtic Brittany, which had been and would continue to be independent for centuries. Then the central rule collapsed with the coming of the vikings, magyars and feodalism and the king would have little power outside of Ile-de-France - those central areas near Paris and Orleans - until the 12th century.

From 1491 onwards the French kings would gain control of Brittany through marriages and in 1532 the parliament in Rennes would accept the joining of Brittany to France.

But all those others were officially part of France, even when Aquitane had a tradition of local sub-kings. Aquitane was connected not to the English crown but to the Angevin family through marriage between it's heiress Eleanor(d.1204) and Henry II(d.1189), who became king of England in 1154. In a decision that had far-reaching consequences, Eleanor's first husband, Louis VII(d.1180) of France had divorced her and given up Aquitane because she gave him "only" daughters.

Henry held also Normandy, Anjou and Maine among others. The so-called Angevin Empire also briefly held Brittany under Henry's son Geoffroy(d.1186) and the latter's son Arthur(d.1203).

But the kings of England held all these other lands separately from their British possessions and officially as the vassal of the king of France. Even when the unfortunate Henry VI(d.1471) went to rule - as much as a a child and later a madman can rule - large part of northern France in competition with his maternal uncle Charles VII(d.1461), he did it officially in the role of king of France, not as a king of England. It needed Napoleon to force George III to give up the nominal title of king of France.

Champagne was never English, although many ties connected it to the Angevins. It was a powerful, semi-independent and also a major center of international trade thanks to it's Fairs. Counts of Champagne, like the Angevins, gained a foreign throne in the form of Navarre in 1234, but the extinction of the male line of the family in 1274 made the family's heiress a ward of the king of France, who naturally married her with his son. As a descendant of this union, Edward III of England had a minor and legally conflicted claim to Champagne as he had for the throne of France too.
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Last edited by Rouge77 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Life Is The Path wrote:

And, sorry to disprove your point, Henning, but I could have answered every single one of your questions without looking it up on the interweb....


Actually that doesn't disprove it. I said around 1 in 100,000 or fewer would make the connection. You are that 1. I just made the point that the vast majority couldn't. Is it completely not going to happen? of course some will notice. But not everyone.

Also, keep in mind that's something from 600 years ago in a world with a population of 6 billion.

We're talking 3000 years in a galaxy with a population of trillions. Yes, some will notice, but the vast majority won't

Life Is The Path wrote:
And on an in-universe point. Wasn't the Holonet made on Palpatine's orders, back when he was just a senator?


I haven't heard that before. I seem to remember it being mentioned in Errant Knight (novel), so I don't THINK so. Will check.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:16 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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I am that 1? Wow. I be special!
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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You are very special, Life. Here, have a Wookiee Cookie.

As for changing history, Lord Daiman took a pretty good stab at that in Knight Errant. It's possible Bane's long line of Sith did some of their own subterfuge to further muddy the water. I really don't think it's all that big a deal that Palpatine recycled old symbols and terminology. I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, nor is it hurting my experience of Star Wars. Video games like TOR are going to recycle a lot, it's expected.
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I really don't think it's all that big a deal that Palpatine recycled old symbols and terminology.

Oh I'm not either, rest assured. It's just a little unprofessional in my opinion.
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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Reepicheep wrote:
Darth Skuldren wrote:
I really don't think it's all that big a deal that Palpatine recycled old symbols and terminology.

Oh I'm not either, rest assured. It's just a little unprofessional in my opinion.


Old symbols serving new ideologies is nothing uncommon.

Or similar symbols getting mixed up. The similarity of an Egyptian Ankh or a Mayan "maize cross" - symbol of a world tree - to a certain other cross symbol, for example. Similarity doesn't mean similar connotations, although such can be created when the symbols co-exist: Maize crosses have ended up in gravestones in Mexico on occasion.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:31 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:
Darth Skuldren wrote:
I really don't think it's all that big a deal that Palpatine recycled old symbols and terminology.

Oh I'm not either, rest assured. It's just a little unprofessional in my opinion.


Perhaps not. The Romans, after all, borrowed almost all of their technology, social structure, and especially their military design from other cultures, most significantly the Greeks and the Carthaginians. They did this because they saw nothing wrong in adopting an enemy's technology, simply because it proved itself effective - more effective than what they had at the time. It certainly didn't do them any harm Wink .
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Maybe, but this isn't technology or military strategies. There's no benefit in using your former enemie's insignias and uniforms. Neutral
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Let's blame it on the "veil of the dark side." The excuse was good enough for that little green gremlin on the council.

Forsee this I could not. Veil of the dark side it was. Fault mine was not.
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"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Reepicheep wrote:
Maybe, but this isn't technology or military strategies. There's no benefit in using your former enemie's insignias and uniforms. Neutral


People in US thought differently when they designed their flag... In early variations there were even the British flag in place of the stars. Wink

The US flag has also been used by it's victims, like the people removed from their homes in Bikini atoll who use this as their flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bikini_Atoll
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^Weird, but I guess I'll have to admit it is possible. I guess. Neutral
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Doubt not, Reepicheep,
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There is the utter east.


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