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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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which "Jedi/Mando thing" do you refer? People's either liking KTs books or not?

Yeah, that's the one.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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YodaBauer2442 wrote:
which "Jedi/Mando thing" do you refer? People's either liking KTs books or not?

Yeah, that's the one.


Ah so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you then- are you saying that it seems as though some of those fans upset about the Jedi/Mando thing brought forth in the KT novels are enjoying every time something happens in TCW that might move KT's plots and characters farther from continuity? Cause I think I see what you mean in that.

I didn't see the Jedi Mando thing as something going against continuity as some people had. I felt it was just bringing forth a POV that we've been told existed in that time frame, and would be most dominate post Order 66. But I do know that others felt pretty passionate against those books.

Which I think is why I find KT penning TCW so ironic. Laughing


Another thought I find ironic: That the stories will never go away.

I say this because yes- your novel with the story in it will always be there- and probably even be re printed. But if some change did effect the book then every book written after the change would not reference what occurs in the book and while the book physically doesn't go away- the adventure to the characters does.

In that regard it reminds me of what changes with Han in my eyes due to the retcon with Greedo. Sure the Han story exists but it's not canon and not a part of Geogre's sw- even if it is in mine.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:


fans upset about the Jedi/Mando thing brought forth in the KT novels are enjoying every time something happens in TCW that might move KT's plots and characters farther from continuity?


Yes, and that others who are complete fandalorians purposely hold more against the series than other.

Quote:
Which I think is why I find KT penning TCW so ironic. Laughing


I had never thought of that before, amazing!


Quote:
Another thought I find ironic: That the stories will never go away.


I have always thought that! Thank you!
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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What really gets me is when parts of the EU that most fans really like (such as Traviss' Mandalore) are retconned. I wouldn't want Star Wars to degrade into mere fan service, but I think that Lucas and the Powers That Be should consider how well loved a bit of continuity is before they change it.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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I'm still waiting for my white-armored Mandalorians. And Stormtroopers with lightsabers, while we're at it. Razz
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  LightsaberRattling
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Oh boy a continuity debate

A very well reasoned post by Dunc at Club Jade. Some here may seen me talk about how I view the EU using the historian analogy and how it helps me rationalize blatant contradictions in continuity. Below are my full thoughts....


Sometimes we take things to seriously. In the end, the EU is nothing but a collection of stories written at different times by different authors' based on an original set of stories written by George Lucas. This isn't life and death, it is entertainment and we should always keep that in perspective.

One of the ways that I help to rationalize the conflicting story elements that appear in continuity, is to intellectualize the process. The Star Wars saga supposedly took place "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away." Conceptualize these stories as ancient historical events, then approach them by looking at how we remember ancient historical events on earth. Often in historical accounts from ancient times there are conflicting accounts of events. Some times these conflicting accounts are the result of mistranslations, of misunderstandings, or of incomplete information. Some times these differences are actively inserted in the historical records, as Winston Churchill said, "history is written by the victors."

When a conflict arises in continuity, I try to think of the different authors as ancient historians, and embrace the fact that there will be differing accounts of the same events or persons. Try not to get to hung up on minor details, or even major continuity changes. Focus on the spirit of the story, what is at its core.

Ultimately enjoy each story on its own merits. Whether or not they can all be fit into the larger tapestry of Star Wars continuity only enriches the story. If a story or a character does not fit into this tapestry perfectly, does it make that story or that character any less enjoyable when you read, listen or view it? I think not.

The only time that continuity really bothers me is in situations such as the Karen Traviss imbroglio. While I think Karen shares some of the blame for the way she, in my opinion overreacted and blew what should have been a workable situation between herself, Lucasfilm, and Del Rey working together to retcon the Mandalorians and complete the story of the Republic Commando characters into an unmitigated mess. What bothers me is not so much the way The Clone Wars changed the Mandalorian culture from what was presented in the EU, but the fact that it resulted in a story not being finished. A story that spanned five books. That is a significant financial and emotional investment that fans made in a set of characters and their stories that were left unfinished. I doubt that we ever see Karen return to the Star Wars universe, but I hope that the Republic Commando characters are revisited at some point to give their stories closure.

In the end, changes will be made to continuity whether you like it or not. You can either get angry about it and allow it to spoil your enjoyment of Star Wars, or you can roll with the punches and find your own way to rationalize the changes to the tapestry. Good Luck with your decision.

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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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YodaBauer2442 wrote:
illogicalRogue2 wrote:


fans upset about the Jedi/Mando thing brought forth in the KT novels are enjoying every time something happens in TCW that might move KT's plots and characters farther from continuity?


Yes, and that others who are complete fandalorians purposely hold more against the series than other.



True! There are many more of those who simply ignore the show, but those few that are out there poking fun at the show are doing EU fans everywhere injustice. Just as others doing the same in the opposing side's interest is an injustice to those fans as well. Can't they all just get a long!



DarkSideSon wrote:
I'm still waiting for my white-armored Mandalorians. And Stormtroopers with lightsabers, while we're at it.


Ask and Karen provide: Stormtroopers with lightsabers As for the white Mando's in white.. that one could be coming? Wink
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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Someone at Port Haven said it would be a good idea for white-armored Mandalorians.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:06 am Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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I think something that fans don't really do is put themselves in Lucas's shoes.

Ok, so let's pretend that WE created Star Wars. Or something similar. And like him, had complete control over story and direction from start to finish. As the years go on, we want to return and tweak things to make them (in our opinion) better. We want to tell more stories without feeling trapped by others who have written in the universe that they didn't create.

Man, I'd do the exact same thing if I were Lucas.


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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:10 am Reply with quote  
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  YodaBauer2442
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Well said VileZero! Lucas fought so hard to get SW made the way he wanted it, no reason he'd stop now.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:15 am Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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Well said.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:40 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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YodaBauer2442 wrote:
Well said VileZero! Lucas fought so hard to get SW made the way he wanted it, no reason he'd stop now.


Well that's just it- part of this current mess is because he didn't even fight hard for it all, he just decreed it so. Remember he set up the EU. Just as his continued story telling is now occasionally conflicting with it. He could end it all with a decree. One way or another.

That's where it gets back to- he's only human and can change his mind a thousand times.

We tongue and cheek Han shot first cause it's the most glaring re do that George has given us. Sure most if not all of us are at peace with it by now. But if he ever decides to alter things yet again and changes say the OT in a major way, then some who see no logic in a petition to preserve the integrity of the Star Wars saga might understand a desire to preserve sw as the one universe (one continuity) we say it is that Mr. Chee says won't ever become two.

(And again I don't expect the way it works to change I just point out things and ponder the age old question)

Some have said they prefer George's take on the SW Universe- I can understand this- but to a point- cause WHICH version of his SW Universe are we referring? Cause it has changed a lot over the decades and to degrees continues to.

But the way it is currently set up no matter what George says goes. but if he were to come down with dementia tomorrow and continued to work on SW and TCW for the next 20 years and it started to look like Charlie Sheen's podcast everyone might get the desire- again - to prevent that kind of one man control with blind obedience in a saga that has grown well out side it's original scope and vision.

For me it gets back to at the end of the day when George's tale is told we can find ways to have told the same story with the same impacts with out using characters, planets, or events that then knock other stories out of canon- be it EU or George's own original tales being knocked out. Granted I understand he doesn't have to change things, but it's clear that the current way of doing things is making certain products worth less value to those it's aimed at- thinking of essential guides more then books- for essential guides are presented more as fact less as story pov.

Again I say George is a genius when it comes to cashing in on other great ideas. I'm just surprised he doesn't capitalize on the EU more. Bring it back under his control more even if need be. Something.

And I'm serious when I say if he decided to end the books I'd be fine with it. Because IMO all that would do would force the EU to be more as George wanted it. I mean TCW episode novels are about the closest we have to a more G rated EU novel anyway.

We talk about getting in Lucas' shoes but we really can't. We can imagine what it might be like, but that's as far as we can go. But the end of the day this issue has arisen due to how he has set up the EU. Just as we can't 100% say that the PT wouldn't have happened if not for the success of the EU in the first place. We just don't know. But it does give us things to think about and consider.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:46 am Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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What ticks me off is that people are so anal-retentive about "Who shot first?" that they completely ignore the fact that Luke's lightsaber is green, then white in the Millennium Falcon. Evil or Very Mad
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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VileZero wrote:
I think something that fans don't really do is put themselves in Lucas's shoes.

Ok, so let's pretend that WE created Star Wars. Or something similar. And like him, had complete control over story and direction from start to finish. As the years go on, we want to return and tweak things to make them (in our opinion) better. We want to tell more stories without feeling trapped by others who have written in the universe that they didn't create.

Man, I'd do the exact same thing if I were Lucas.


Ok, Lets pretend.
I'm GL it's the mid 90's and I want to make more cash of of Star Wars and know there are countless of fans out there that would want new SW-stories.
As I don't want to write them myself, I give others my blessing and even hire people to organize the writing of the new novels and comics.
A lot of people start reading these and money comes in. Because I know I have some serious fans out there that would almost certainly want to read about everything Star Wars a lot of comics and novels are written and I get a nice percentage of the profits.
Now comes the time I myself want to make new SW adventures.
Those fans that I know I have (and I count on them the most to keep buying my stuff, it's still uncertain how many new fans TCW will create) have come to look to their novels as being canon.
Shouldn't I keep them in mind when I make my new stories? At least when it comes to the big things like characters being alive when their dead or dying when they are alive? I think I would, out of decency to my customers who provided for a big part of my pay. And for the fans which I know invested so much time effort and money in Star Wars.
Because I would know that if the TCW/3D hype dies down again that I could still count on the real fans I already had.
Ofcourse, my head could have been swollen too big from all the people treating me like a god...

And like IR2 I also wonder who decides when a retcon should be made. Anyone who can tell us?
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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It's a funny thing, that I read that post by Dunc and disagreed with the phrase 'but the lack of casual/moderate voices bugs me even more', and I was going to say that wasn't true, that there are moderate voices out there. Then I read this thread Razz

And then I read this bit: Does a seamless, overreaching continuity have to matter to us, on a personal level?

Well, take out the seamless (see my Diver's Suit analogy), then I'd say yes. It's one of the perks of having this universe. That, on the whole, it is overreaching. However, I have to take umbridge (maybe that's too strong a word. I just like the sound of it) at the use of 'have'. We don't have to, it's a choice we make.

Now, I think Lucas has the right to do what he wants, but, agreeing with Reeps, I think he does go too far. He created the sandbox, yes, but he allowed others to play in it, so he has to be the grown up and take responsibility and let them build the sand castle cohesively, so that it stands up to the test of time, because he said that's what he wanted.

Sorry to say this, but bugger us fans. It's his employees he owes this responsibility to.
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