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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:00 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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LightsaberRattling wrote:


Ultimately enjoy each story on its own merits. Whether or not they can all be fit into the larger tapestry of Star Wars continuity only enriches the story. If a story or a character does not fit into this tapestry perfectly, does it make that story or that character any less enjoyable when you read, listen or view it? I think not.


That's what I try to do and it usually works. However a continuity is definitley nice. If the EU was like Star Trek, I wouldn't spend my time on it. I like to think these stories have weight.

@VZ: I see what you're saying, but if I made a movie, I wouldn't let anyone else near my idea. I'd either work closely with them or say forget it so I find it hard to sympathize with him.

@Life: Your Diving Suit analogy is the best explanation of continuity I have ever heard!
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:08 am Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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"Screw continuity, just give me a good story!"
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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DarkSideSon wrote:
"Screw continuity, just give me a good story!"


I see you're quoting this- not something you personally espouse then?

I always found that statement silly no one in their right mind would want that. It'd be like saying George make everything like the old trek books even your films just make the story good and who cares if the PT and the OT line up or if Padme had a boy and a girl or 2 boys. As long as the story was good.

IMO you can't just say screw continuity and everything's fine. SW has grown too big for that.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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DarkSideSon wrote:
"Screw continuity, just give me a good story!"


And only have standalone stories that have zero character growth and where everything stays the same in the end? Where people make mistakes but in the next story didn't seem to learn anything from it?
Like with the Donald Duck or Garfield comics where it doesn't matter in what order you read them, the stories are so simple that the status quo never changes.
Or in a way that the novelists only use Lucas' characters and all stories that are written "never really happend" continuity-wise.
In either case, I wouldn't be interrested. Sad
If the EU didn't have continuity I wouldn't even bother with it.

Reepicheep wrote:
That's what I try to do and it usually works. However a continuity is definitley nice. If the EU was like Star Trek, I wouldn't spend my time on it. I like to think these stories have weight.

I completely agree with you on that.

Life is the Path wrote:
Now, I think Lucas has the right to do what he wants, but, agreeing with Reeps, I think he does go too far. He created the sandbox, yes, but he allowed others to play in it, so he has to be the grown up and take responsibility and let them build the sand castle cohesively, so that it stands up to the test of time, because he said that's what he wanted.

Sorry to say this, but bugger us fans. It's his employees he owes this responsibility to.

So true and well said, where almost forgetting the people who wrote these stories (directly or indirectly for Lucas). I only wouldn't go as far as saying bugger us fans Wink
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Here's my two cents: First off, to say George has the right to do anything in relationship to fan opinions about canon and continuity is just silly. George IS Star Wars. He made it, he can do whatever he wants with it. Fans do not own it, and in my opinion, don't have the grounds to say "George doesn't have the right to _____."

However, George does have to remember that the success of all his Star Wars creations depends on the satisfaction of the fans. If the majority of fans become dissatisfied with a change that he makes, that's something he will make note of.

Personally I do have my gripes, but overall, I'm satisfied with Star Wars. As a whole, I like The Clone Wars. As a whole, I like the books, the comics, etc. I'm a happy fan.

Yet, it can be fun to discuss the gripes we run into. The "Who Shot First" argument is a classic. The "Mandalore Incident" is a modern classic. I think it's funny how people talk about the Mandalore retcon, mostly because as far as I know, there isn't a Mandalore retcon yet. I've read fan ideas about how they could retcon, but I've yet to see an official one. As far as the Star Wars Atlas goes, they just dodged a bullet, and no retcon was really given. I'd like to know if the Traviss books took place on the moon or on the planet.

And in my canon, Han shot first without Greedo getting a shot off, because that gives me the most joy as a fan. Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Darth Skuldren wrote:

Yet, it can be fun to discuss the gripes we run into. The "Who Shot First" argument is a classic. The "Mandalore Incident" is a modern classic.


Well put Skul!

Darth Skuldren wrote:

I think it's funny how people talk about the Mandalore retcon, mostly because as far as I know, there isn't a Mandalore retcon yet. I've read fan ideas about how they could retcon, but I've yet to see an official one. As far as the Star Wars Atlas goes, they just dodged a bullet, and no retcon was really given. I'd like to know if the Traviss books took place on the moon or on the planet.


Agreed! Heck they haven't even told us enough to say 100% that they need retconned. As I've said I can see how both cultures can exist on the planet without a need of a retcon beyond "they both happened"

Darth Skuldren wrote:

And in my canon, Han shot first without Greedo getting a shot off, because that gives me the most joy as a fan. Very Happy


Ditto! And my reasons for that POV have been stated in the Han Vs Malcom thread Laughing
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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Lord Ree'dius wrote:
VileZero wrote:
I think something that fans don't really do is put themselves in Lucas's shoes.

Ok, so let's pretend that WE created Star Wars. Or something similar. And like him, had complete control over story and direction from start to finish. As the years go on, we want to return and tweak things to make them (in our opinion) better. We want to tell more stories without feeling trapped by others who have written in the universe that they didn't create.

Man, I'd do the exact same thing if I were Lucas.


Ok, Lets pretend.
I'm GL it's the mid 90's and I want to make more cash of of Star Wars and know there are countless of fans out there that would want new SW-stories.
As I don't want to write them myself, I give others my blessing and even hire people to organize the writing of the new novels and comics.
A lot of people start reading these and money comes in. Because I know I have some serious fans out there that would almost certainly want to read about everything Star Wars a lot of comics and novels are written and I get a nice percentage of the profits.
Now comes the time I myself want to make new SW adventures.
Those fans that I know I have (and I count on them the most to keep buying my stuff, it's still uncertain how many new fans TCW will create) have come to look to their novels as being canon.
Shouldn't I keep them in mind when I make my new stories? At least when it comes to the big things like characters being alive when their dead or dying when they are alive? I think I would, out of decency to my customers who provided for a big part of my pay. And for the fans which I know invested so much time effort and money in Star Wars.
Because I would know that if the TCW/3D hype dies down again that I could still count on the real fans I already had.
Ofcourse, my head could have been swollen too big from all the people treating me like a god...

And like IR2 I also wonder who decides when a retcon should be made. Anyone who can tell us?


See, the fundamental flaw in that line of thinking is this:

Quote:
Those fans that I know I have (and I count on them the most to keep buying my stuff, it's still uncertain how many new fans TCW will create) have come to look to their novels as being canon.
Shouldn't I keep them in mind when I make my new stories? At least when it comes to the big things like characters being alive when their dead or dying when they are alive? I think I would, out of decency to my customers who provided for a big part of my pay. And for the fans which I know invested so much time effort and money in Star Wars.


My answer to that, quite simply, no. It's George's story. He's envisioned it, and he's at a point where he wants to continue it. It isn't a matter of having to weigh everything that has come before, because he doesn't really know much (if any) of it, I'm sure. He set up a nice house of cards to keep the dough rolling in.

Now he wants to tell more stories, and he's going to just tell them. As a writer, I have NO PROBLEM with this. The worst thing you can do as a writer is surround yourself with things that you cannot do. That's why he has Leeland, to pick up the pieces when things don't fit just right.

I think Lucas is more interested in providing high profile stories for his fans to watch. Let's be honest, fans of the EU aren't exactly flourishing the earth in our great numbers. We're an extreme minority. So yeah, Lucas is going to make his television episodes for all the people who enjoyed Star Wars and now have kids (or don't), and the VAST majority of them will have never experienced anything outside of the films. Maybe a comic or two, or even a book, but not the whole thing. And when shooting for that audience, who cares if some uber nerds get grumpy along the way? I mean, it's bound to happen anyway. We get our panties in a bunch about any and everything. We belittle and bully talented authors, and we hurl overarching insults at authors and Del Rey for every story choice we disagree with. Sometimes, we can be a real big bunch of jerks.

When someone gets uppity about the death of Even Piell because of Coruscant Nights, I think it's legitimate if you've read the book. I think it's insulting when others refer to it as a crap trilogy or a set of books no one bothered to read. And you know who says that? Not Lucas, or anyone at LucasFilm. That comes from other fans.

Man, screw the uber fans. What a bunch of ingrates. Cool


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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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The big mistake was not making Coruscant Nights about the late-night adventures of Lando Calrissian IMO. With a name like that, that would be the first thing that crosses your mind. Razz
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I honestly remember an interview I read where Sue said that he dictated who could and couldn't die in NJO but I think they never told him about Ben's birth. In fact I'm unsure if he knows about him still. GL doesn't really pay attention or care to the EU. I wish he did but its his money, his vision, his project, his thing. The rest of us are just supposed to feel lucky enough to be along for the ride.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:31 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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VileZero wrote:
Man, screw the uber fans. What a bunch of ingrates. Cool


Hey hey now! That has nothing to do with being an Uber Fan, "fanatic" sure, but uber fans are fun loving fans. I'm 100% Uber Geek. It's a term for fans of almost all sci-fi and geek. Lets not taint this title too! EU Fans in general get it too rough by the majority of Fandom because of the fanatical wing of our tiny tiny minority. so when one of us screws up it makes us all look bad. It's like the Jedi Order when it was first setting up under Luke.

VileZero wrote:
Lucas is going to make his television episodes for all the people who enjoyed Star Wars and now have kids (or don't), and the VAST majority of them will have never experienced anything outside of the films. Maybe a comic or two, or even a book, but not the whole thing. And when shooting for that audience, who cares if some uber nerds get grumpy along the way? I mean, it's bound to happen anyway.


This is fine and good, but the most business sense is to get that vast majority to pick up a comic book or a novel and get those sales as well, you know what those viewers are to del rey right? TARGET AUDIENCE. Laughing It makes sense to keep SW working together. I'm not saying go out of your way to fix everything now- or even later- but it makes sense to stop telling stories that contradict anything that comes out after --- oh lets just say today- from today on let no more book or tv show contradict itself, or its sister spin off. To me that's what a continuity should be.

Now lets move Piell up to tomorrow, and now he's under that new way of looking at it. If it was vital for George to use Piell then the book's going to change (like it did) but if it's not "Vital" George just goes "oh, he is? Ok so we'll have a new Jedi Master how's been on the High Council for a while., who will die in this episode.)"

I mean what would people say to him- WHAT GEORGE?! We can't put a new high council member on the team who's been there the whole time like some Sentry from Marvel comics. Oh wait- we can... you did just that with Ahsoka, or like Eeth Koth and Agen Kolor, or Adi Galli and Stass Allie when we just swapped out new characters for old Masters.

The pov here is that it's not hard to work with the other works of his company. Sure we're not asking him to limit his vision.

But it would be cool all around if he worked to capitalize on the profit of getting viewers of his films and tv shows to branch into the books and comics as well. I'd think it would be a win win.

But when it comes to having a better continuity process in place it seems to many a taboo form of thought. I mean why not retcon they way it's been done, it's the way SW works Laughing
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:26 am Reply with quote  
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  DarkSideSon
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GET THOSE NERDS!!! JK LOL Razz
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Okay, think of it like this: George Lucas is Bernard Cornwell, and the SW EU is the Sharpe series. They're tales of historical fiction, yes, but essentially they stick to the main principal of real historical events - it's just the little details that get fudged, in order to get Sharpe (I'll let you decide who Sharpe is in this scenario) to fit into events.
Now, it's all well and good to say the EU is just a set of books that tell the history of what happened long ago, but for the most part, each book alone deals with a set historical event. You don't really get more than one book covering the same event - except for when a newer book references it. The other exceptions being (or at least, that I'm aware of) is I, Jedi, and any book that has Order 66 in it - and, to be fair, the only two I know of deal with different points of view.

I'm curious now, what other books show the first time Order 66 is enacted? I know of Order 66 by Traviss, and the ROTS novel.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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@ Vilezero

First off, I don't consider myself a Uber fan or fanatic. I am however a geek who is a sucker for continuity.
In my mind the real uberfans are those who put George Lucas on a pedistal, worship everything he does and be thankfull of all he's giving us (for only a slight fee). Like he isn't a man who has his faults just like everyone else. Why would George Lucas be the only man on earth who doesn't have to take responsibility for the actions of his own companies? Or that he is in a position where no one can have a complaint about him.

You are saying that George Lucas has the right to make stories or let others make stories and then discard them on a whim and I just disagree.
Quote:
I think Lucas is more interested in providing high profile stories for his fans to watch
Well, I wish he succeeded more at it. Maybe if he didn't try to be too humorous with half TCW episodes or actually did more himself in stead of letting his daughter write half the show we good have some more decent episodes per season than we've seen untill now. I can't wait to see the next adventure of Papanoida or the kids of mandalore faul another plot Confused

Caedus_16 wrote:
I wish he did but its his money, his vision, his project, his thing. The rest of us are just supposed to feel lucky enough to be along for the ride.
My sentiments too. To me, that's just not a very polite way of acting.

IR2 wrote:
This is fine and good, but the most business sense is to get that vast majority to pick up a comic book or a novel and get those sales as well, you know what those viewers are to del rey right? TARGET AUDIENCE. Laughing It makes sense to keep SW working together. I'm not saying go out of your way to fix everything now- or even later- but it makes sense to stop telling stories that contradict anything that comes out after --- oh lets just say today- from today on let no more book or tv show contradict itself, or its sister spin off. To me that's what a continuity should be.
I agree. And you know, I sometimes get the feeling that most people be Lucasart or Lucasbooks get this and work hard to make it so. It's like Lucas is the only one that doesn't get this.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:09 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
Well, I wish he succeeded more at it. Maybe if he didn't try to be too humorous with half TCW episodes or actually did more himself in stead of letting his daughter write half the show we good have some more decent episodes per season than we've seen untill now. I can't wait to see the next adventure of Papanoida or the kids of mandalore faul another plot


I'm only going to say this once so listen carefully. It's a kids' show on Cartoon Network. It's not a theatrical release for the general populace. Lighten up and get some perspective here. Wink

Quote:
First off, I don't consider myself a Uber fan or fanatic. I am however a geek who is a sucker for continuity.
In my mind the real uberfans are those who put George Lucas on a pedistal, worship everything he does and be thankfull of all he's giving us (for only a slight fee). Like he isn't a man who has his faults just like everyone else. Why would George Lucas be the only man on earth who doesn't have to take responsibility for the actions of his own companies? Or that he is in a position where no one can have a complaint about him.


I don't know anyone like this so if you do, could you name names? I'm pretty uncritical about what GL decides to do, but I have my complaints. I just don't get on a soapbox and go and on and on about it. Also, there's nothing wrong with not having a massive sense of fan entitlement and with acknowledging that the man who created Star Wars probably has more rights here than say just about anyone else.

I'm also really tired of this whole Lucas making money off the fans line. Don't like what he's doing? Don't give him the money. I personally can't stand Karen Traviss and I will never, ever spend another dime on anything she does, but I'm not all over the internet complaining about how she screwed up the EU and should listen to me because I don't like what she did.

Btw, Lucas was rich before the EU got started. He allowed the EU because it was what the fans wanted; not because it was going to make him rich. He allowed it in spite of it not being his vision of post-ROTJ. What no one seems to remember now is how much of gamble GL took with making Star Wars, and he could just as easily have lost his shirt on the whole thing. It wasn't the studios who financed ESB; it was GL from his proceeds from ANH. Lucas retained the rights to Star Wars and it made him rich. But no one had a crystal ball and could predict the massive product explosion that would result. It had never happened before.

I don't mind anyone having issues with the continuity and voicing those issues. What I don't like is the attitude of entitlement and the lack of respect for Lucas inherent in it.
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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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In retort to Cerrinea:

The only example of said uber geek I can think of is the geek they use in the Robot Chicken skits, the one who dresses up like a Taun Taun.

As for The Clone Wars being a kid's show, you're partly correct. The Clone Wars is a kids show, but it's also geared toward general enjoyment for fans of all ages. The more quality they put into the show, the more respect it is given. Just because it's a kid show does not mean they should slack off or dumb things down. They should strive to create a form of entertainment that excels beyond the normal kid fair, and transcends age groups. It's a loft goal, but I think it would be a good one.

The whole "stop buying Star Wars stuff if you don't like it" is something I can partially get behind. I was dissatisfied with the TFU novel, thus I didn't buy the second one. I was a little disappointed with Deathtroopers and the whole "hardbacks galore" movement that DelRey is pushing, thus I didn't buy Red Harvest...yet. However, I am a Star Wars fan. Ever since reading the Thrawn Trilogy and the Jedi Academy Trilogy, I've been an addict. In a way, George is the kingpin of the cartel and I depend on his pushers to provide me with my fix. There's only so much "not buying" I can do.

But as far as entitlement and a lack of respect for Lucas, I agree. If you call yourself a Star Wars fan, you really should have some degree of respect for Lucas, and the whole fan entitlement thing just seems silly. As fans, we don't get rights. Are only power is the pocket book.
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