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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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I'd like to submit another important detail. Much of Anakin's fall had to do with his fear of losing Padmé. I suspect that Qui-Gon would detect these problems better than Obi-Wan could, and I suspect Qui-Gon might even be able to properly counsel Anakin through his difficulties. THAT BEING SAID (my favourite phrase), we know how Qui-Gon felt about love within the Order. He loved Tahl, and her death almost killed him. He practically forced Obi-Wan to bury and abandon his feelings for Siri. Qui-Gon would probably have given the same advice to Anakin: bury your feelings for Padmé. So instead of hiding his love, Anakin would have denied it to everyone, even himself.

And love cannot be contained like that. Anakin would've eventually exploded, and the Galaxy may have been even worse off than it was under the canon Empire.

Thoughts on how Qui-Gon might have dealt with Anakin's love for Padmé?


Another quick point: is anyone else having trouble logging into the forum? It keeps auto-logging me out, and sometimes won't let me log back in.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Personally, I found that whole Siri storyline just off, and Qui Gon's behavior really out of character especially considering what had happened in regards to Tahl. And now some of the Siri story is out of canon anyway. She wasn't Obi-Wan's one, true, everlasting love (the list is getting longer all the time. The guy was a player. LOL).

I don't think Qui Gon would have handled the Anakin/Padme thing at all how he handled the Siri/Obi-Wan thing. And just to work with the storyline Jude Watson presented us, one of Qui Gon's arguments to Obi-Wan was to make a decision with his eyes open. This Jedi Order and this Council were not going to change the rule on attachment. This happened in 39 BBY. It's another 20 years and totally different times in drastic circumstances when Anakin/Padme occur. You can't discount that, and the fact is that war accelerates societal changes.

The fact is, the Jedi Order was already changing, and had they survived would have inevitably changed further. As usual the change started with the rank and file; not at the top. We already know of several instances where knights had married and had children. Anakin Skywalker was not a lone Jedi in this.

I think Qui Gon would have seized the opportunity that was presenting itself to push change in the Jedi Order.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:33 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Cerrinea wrote:

I really have to disagree with you here, OMB. Obi-Wan was a brand-new knight when he became Anakin's master, and only about 15 years older than his padawan. Qui Gon on the other hand, had decades of experience both as a master and a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan was 25; Qui Gon in his 50s. Plus you have one (Obi-Wan) who's very focused on the Unifying Force, and the other who really understands the strength and necessity of the Living Force. I think having Qui Gon for a master would have made all the difference for Anakin.


I'm not sure. Perhaps the major age difference would make him seem more like a father, but plenty of padawans have had masters that were much older than they were. Did the father/mother feeling always exist, and should it have? I wouldn't think that having an older mentor would necessarily mean the father connection is made. But you're probably right.

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Thoughts on how Qui-Gon might have dealt with Anakin's love for Padmé?


I think you're spot on. Qui-Gon would have taken his experience with Tahl as a reason to tell Anakin to bury his feelings. As we know, Anakin has trouble with doing that sort of thing, and it could have really backfired.

As for logging in trouble - I'm not having any issues. Perhaps there are some cookies that need to be deleted?


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:36 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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I think Qui Gon would have seized the opportunity that was presenting itself to push change in the Jedi Order.


This leads me to another question. I agree that Qui-Gon would have pushed for change as the Clone Wars began, and maybe even before that. But what happens when the Order doesn't listen, and when the council rejects his unorthodox thoughts once again? Would he have done as Dooku suggested to Obi-Wan? Do you think Qui-Gon would have left the Order?


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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It's an interesting scenario, Skuls, but ultimately I don't think it would have worked out like that.

However, before I get into the heart of it, I just want to point out one thing:

Quote:
In the short time Qui-Gon was around, he made some pretty big leaps in the Force, most notably being able to preserve his identity in the Force, ie. become one with the Force. Given another ten years, Qui-Gon could have achieved some great things, and could have passed that down to his apprentices.


Qui Gon was 60 when he died. I don't think he would've learned all that much - but I don't think he would have learned some new lessons, had he taught Anakin, and Anakin, hopefully, vice versa.

Quote:
The harsh strictness of the Jedi Order did not mix well with Anakin, and it led him to his rebellion.


It wasn't just the Jedi Order, though. It was Palpatine pouring words and thoughts into his ears. When the chancellor found such a powerful being I don't think even Qui Gon would have stopped him from getting access to the boy.

Quote:
He was willing to train Anakin even though he was older than typical younglings. He was also willing to train him despite the sheer power and potential that Anakin had.
Despite, or because? Now, I've only read a handful of OJO books, and none that had Qui Gon, so I don't know if he made a habit of picking up Force sensitive children, but I think Qui Gon went out on such a limb because Anakin was so powerful - so powerful that he believed him to be the Chosen One.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Cerrinea wrote:
I really have to disagree with you here, OMB. Obi-Wan was a brand-new knight when he became Anakin's master, and only about 15 years older than his padawan. Qui Gon on the other hand, had decades of experience both as a master and a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan was 25; Qui Gon in his 50s. Plus you have one (Obi-Wan) who's very focused on the Unifying Force, and the other who really understands the strength and necessity of the Living Force. I think having Qui Gon for a master would have made all the difference for Anakin........
..........However, I do think Anakin needed the kind of teaching in the Living Force that Qui Gon would have given him. The OJO had lost the deeper meaning of the Living Force in their focus on the Unifying Force, but Qui Gon got it. Obi-Wan could not give that to Anakin; he did not have it himself. He obediently followed the line of the orthodox Jedi Council, centering on the Unifying Force. I think later on Tatooine he delved much more into the Living Force. That's what he passed on to Luke.

You notice that Obi-Wan also never passed on the stricture about attachment to Luke. Wink
I agree with you on this Cerrinea. I also think that with Qui-gon for a Master Anakin would have had a harder time keeping a lot of his wrong-doings secret.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Remember, Obi-Wan had his flaws under Qui-Gon. I think the same issues that Anakin had during his training with Obi-Wan would have existed under Qui-Gon. Most of that is a personality issue with Anakin that Qui-Gon couldn't change. Where I think Qui-Gon would have been most instrumental in saving Anakin is actually after Anakin's training. Qui-Gon would have ruined Palpatine's plan, for three reasons.

1) Qui-Gon would give Anakin that second person to go to for advice. Would Anakin still be involved with Palpatine? Maybe. But I'm not sure he'd be so deeply influenced. Without Qui-Gon, it's the strict advice of Obi-Wan vs. the always helpful advice of Palpatine.

2) Qui-Gon would have prevented the entire mess with Anakin not being on the council. After all, the council was something that Qui-Gon never aimed for. He even disagreed with it. Perhaps Anakin would realize that a spot on the council and the rank of master is hardly as important if he saw the example of Qui-Gon.

3) This is a bit of a stretch, but I would think that Qui-Gon could help with the Padme visions. He may even have had a solution similar to what Palpatine offered.

There are of course many other ways that Qui-Gon would have influenced the Clone Wars. Would have have trusted Dooku's words of a Sith Lord controlling the government? After all, Dooku was once his master. And how would Palpatine and Qui-Gon play against each-other? Would Palpatine send him away during the events of Revenge of the Sith, like he did with Obi-Wan? So many questions.

A great topic to kick Qui-Gon week off with, Skuldren. Remember, we need to do five more pages of posts to reach our goal. I believe each page takes 15 posts. I have other questions about Qui-Gon that I'll slip in during the day, as soon as one topic stops giving us fuel for conversation.


I don't believe this to be true. What advice would Anakin be given by Qui Gon? Palpatine would have told him exactly what he wanted to hear. Qui Gon, I believe, would have told him not what he wanted to hear - at least not always.

Besides, Anakin didn't want to be on the council just for the sake of being on the council - he wanted access to knowledge that was limited to Council members. Qui Gon, while very knowledgeable, would not have had the necessary experience to pass on to him. In fact, I don't think he would have given Anakin much the same advice as Palpatine. That is to embrace death. (Mourn and miss all you want, I believe he would have said, but after a time he would know that to accept it was what was right.) While he strived for the key to eternal consciousness, he also knew the limitations of life - especially for a Jedi. Definitely he would have known this after the Naboo fight, anyhow...
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:32 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Quote:
I think Qui Gon would have seized the opportunity that was presenting itself to push change in the Jedi Order.


This leads me to another question. I agree that Qui-Gon would have pushed for change as the Clone Wars began, and maybe even before that. But what happens when the Order doesn't listen, and when the council rejects his unorthodox thoughts once again? Would he have done as Dooku suggested to Obi-Wan? Do you think Qui-Gon would have left the Order?


I think he would have done what Etain Tur Mukan did, and stay in the Order to help as many as he could, to change what he could from within, but I don't think he would have left to join Dooku - though my memory of the events, as detailed in the Dark Lord trilogy, around the leaving of Dooku are somewhat hazy, so I can't say anything for definite.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Quote:
I think Qui Gon would have seized the opportunity that was presenting itself to push change in the Jedi Order.


This leads me to another question. I agree that Qui-Gon would have pushed for change as the Clone Wars began, and maybe even before that. But what happens when the Order doesn't listen, and when the council rejects his unorthodox thoughts once again? Would he have done as Dooku suggested to Obi-Wan? Do you think Qui-Gon would have left the Order?


He could very well have left the Jedi Order, but never to fight on the side of the Sith.
Qui-gon would sooner have gone rogue I think. Maybe even taking part of the Order with him.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
Qui Gon was 60 when he died. I don't think he would've learned all that much - but I don't think he would have learned some new lessons, had he taught Anakin, and Anakin, hopefully, vice versa.


Thanks so much, Life. I'm 60. Nice to know a lifetime of wisdom counts for not much.

As for Dooku leaving the Order. It was Qui Gon's death that was the final straw. With Qui Gon not dead who's to say what the future would have been for Dooku?

I believe Qui Gon would have had a very powerful influence on Anakin. I also think he would have been a heavy counter balance to Palpatine. You're making the mistake of thinking that everything would have happened exactly as it did. Qui Gon alive would have changed everything by virtue of his just being alive.
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:45 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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I was talking about him not learning or achieving much new in the ten years or so Skuls was speaking of.

Quote:
In the short time Qui-Gon was around, he made some pretty big leaps in the Force, most notably being able to preserve his identity in the Force, ie. become one with the Force. Given another ten years, Qui-Gon could have achieved some great things, and could have passed that down to his apprentices.

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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Life Is The Path wrote:
I was talking about him not learning or achieving much new in the ten years or so Skuls was speaking of.

Quote:
In the short time Qui-Gon was around, he made some pretty big leaps in the Force, most notably being able to preserve his identity in the Force, ie. become one with the Force. Given another ten years, Qui-Gon could have achieved some great things, and could have passed that down to his apprentices.


Bonus points to Life for making something bold within a quote. Who would have thought. Wink


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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IF Qui-Gon had lived through the Battle of Naboo, if he had been around for duration of The Clone Wars... I have to wonder what the clones assigned to him would have been like.

How might their armor have been decorated, their colors/symbols? What might have the Clone Commander of Master Jinn's unit have been named and how would that clone leader be portrayed? What kind of a General would Qui-Gon have been? And what kind of missions would Jinn and his boys get assigned to?


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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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To my knowledge, no author has ever tried to work simultaneously with Qui-Gon and with Djinn Altis's Jedi sect.

Maybe Qui-Gon would dissociate himself with the main Council, and associate himself with Altis? Or started his own sect, a la Altis?
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 PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  grayJeedai08
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Oh really? Lol, says you only!


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