True Colors

So...inspired by LivingJediDream's comment elsewhere on the forums, I have decided to create this thread.

Most of us worship the ground upon which A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back tread. Some of us also include Return of the Jedi with those. Some do not.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, a good bit of us dislike The Force Unleashed with quite a passion. The majority of those who do not are indifferent.

So I find it extremely interesting that Jedi thinks a little differently than the rest of us. Which makes for an excellent debate, I believe.

Now I would like to specify something before we begin: LivingJediDream, and anyone who agrees with him, is simply expressing an opinion. The fact that he does like TFU so much shows that he does not follow mainstream opinion, which is refreshing. So we should all respect all opinions displayed here and give them due respect.

Granted, were Jedi running around trying to beat his opinions into everyone else's heads, well...then I would say we should beat right back. Wink

But he's not! So...let the debate begin!

To start: What do you really think of each movie? Do you perhaps have negative comments concerning the Original Trilogy that you chose not to express for fear your life might be forfeit?

Now is the time! Share these thoughts. I promise, your secrets are safe with us. Wink

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"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker

Challenge accepted. Smile

*clear throat importantly*

ANH: The first Star Wars film released, obviously, and probably the one that most people see first. Fangirl-ish adoration aside, it's a fantastic film. The characters are rather simple, yet so engaging. The only thing I will say against it is that I can see how someone seeing it for the first time might find the beginning a bit slow. From the burning homestead on, though, everything moves at a breakneck speed. I dare anyone to get bored. And let's not even get started on the attack on the Death Star and how the effects changed modern filmmaking.

ESB: The only SW film that I shall dare to call perfect. My favorite of the saga. It took the simple characters of ANH and gave them so much more depth and growth. Luke's training with Yoda. The awesomeness of Han and Leia's banter. It also gave us the greatest cliffhanger in the history of time. I shall not go on, as I am incapable of doing anything other than sing its praises. Although I suppose if I have one minor grievance, it's that the Bantam era books apparently thought that the ESB model was the only way to go. Remember how in every novel they'd split Han, Luke, and Leia up? By the NJO, I was just ready for the Big Three to be in the same room for five minutes.

RotJ: In my opinion, the worst of the OT. But that's not to say that it isn't fantastic. It is. But to me, it doesn't quite reach the level of the previous two. The opening sequence on Tatooine, the attack on the second Death Star, and the final confrontation between Luke, Vader, and Palps are the highlights for me. I am indifferent about the Ewoks. They're there. They're fine. My least favorite part: the reveal of Vader. I have never liked it. I'm not entirely sure why. Aside from that, my only notable complaint is that Carrie Fisher didn't have as much fire as she did in the other movies. Maybe she was just tired of the whole Star Wars thing.

I shall return later with thoughts on the prequels.
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All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.

I fell in love with the entire saga when I saw them as a twelve or thirteen year old. Since then I've noticed flaws in the prequels but I have very little negative feedback to give on the originals. They stand the test of time brilliantly.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

I hate the stupid music number they added in ROTJ with the long nosed singer in Jabba's court. I've never liked Luke in any of the films. He was too whiny for my liking. I actually despised him before I read the books. Zahn managed to change my mind. I also did not like how the Han vs Greedo scene was constantly changed. So far I've never seen the version where they changed Anakin's Force ghost in ROTJ so I'm not sure how I feel about that.

That however would be the sum of my gripes.
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Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1847

*Hasn't read through this thread yet*

What have I done!?!

Edit: Okay, now I have:

Flaws in A New Hope: The title. I find the "Han Shoots First" argument interesting when people claim that it ruins his character, because if a single scene being altered can ruin a character, then the character wasn't particularly deep, which is mostly true about this film because they're archetypes. The ending isn't that great because it consists of all the cast standing around except for Luke, which is why Lucas ultimately chose to kill Obi-Wan off. I don't like the Jabba scene in the Special Edition because it adds nothing to the film and the visual effects don't work. Plus it has a gratuitous Fett fan service. Not really complaining but it's obvious why that's there.

I'd say A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back are pretty much tied, maybe with Revenge of the Sith slightly behind, as my favorites. Honestly, I'd say all of them except Attack of the Clones I'm fairly fond of. Attack of the Clones is alright in terms of the art design and set pieces and score, but the pacing is abysmal and the dialogue is pretty bad, and those two things are what really separates The Empire Strikes Back as a good film from Attack of the Clones being an average at best film. I'm guessing Harrison Ford and Irvin Kershner saved TESB from having terrible romance dialogue, although some was filmed and thankfully cut.

My complaints about The Empire Strikes Back besides the general lack of a central story that drives the plot, which I think the prequels improved upon by shifting the focus to Anakin because Vader is the central character of the film and ties all the plotlines together, is mostly the replacement of Jason Wingreen's voice with Temuera Morrison (and that's entirely personal preference, though Wingreen's delivery is much more menacing). It has a few plot holes, namely the one I mentioned previously in which the plot is dependent upon Vader's plan which he formulates with information unavailable to him -- really, a lucky coincidence -- as well as the whole Millennium Falcon achieving interstellar travel with its hyperdrive damaged. It's also kind of odd that Obi-Wan waits three years to send Luke to Yoda, or that Han hasn't made any sort of effort to pay off Jabba the Hutt. Keep in mind I'm talking about the film on its own, not the EU attempts to resolve the plot holes.

Luke's plan to rescue Han Solo is fairly convoluted and if he succeeded in actual diplomacy would presumably have lost C-3PO and R2-D2 to Jabba, and his entire plan was contingent upon the foresight that Jabba would execute him at the Pit of Carkoon which would be the only way for Artoo to get him his lightsaber. The big flaw is that the movie is to some degree the dreaded "sequel that's a remake" in the sense that they need to destroy the Death Star again, except this time it's more complex, resolving the issue with the ending in the first film. Another plot hole is the fact that the shield generator is on the surface of Endor when starships that have shields usually (always) have them inside the ship itself. Curious decision. Granted, the film indicates that the shield generator itself was protected by its shield since Tydirium needed codes to bypass the shield to land on the moon.

I actually like Anakin's Force ghost being Hayden Christensen. Vader never looked like a healthy Sebastian Shaw. And no one complains that Luke's Force ghost in Legacy looks as young as he does, so I suspect it's a nostalgia thing. Most of the Special Edition alterations are benign. The Greedo shooting thing is simply stupid, but I don't think it does much to Han's character -- if he has a defining scene in the film, it's the control room of the hangar bay. The Jabba scene is annoying. The "Jedi Rocks" is tolerable but Lapti Nek was better. Don't like Temuera Morrison's delivery of Boba's lines, and simply like Wingreen better. I used to hate the changed dialogue for the Emperor scene in TESB, but now I'm indifferent, namely Vader's "How is that possible?" Originally thought it was stupid, now I think he's playing dumb so Lucas is playing up the betrayal angle. Vader's Death Fleet is off hunting Skywalker behind Palpatine's back while ostensibly hunting the Rebels!
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"Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth.”

“The world is understood through metaphors. Language is a metaphor-system. Mathematics is a metaphor-system. All real-world schools of magic and religion revolve around the understanding of vast metaphor-systems, symbols as they relate to concepts."

"See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it."

That's generally how I've viewed the 'How is that possible?' bit.

Can't really think of many cons of the OT, though I know they're there, it's merely that it's been a while since I've seen them.

One thing I do remember, though, is singing scene. Must he really run up to the camera? Do we really need to see the inside of an alien's oesophagus? Sure, it might be interesting for biologists to know whether aliens do or do not have tonsils, but not me. Another thing, the celebration at the end of ROTJ. I don't like fist pumping moments of celebration in films, preferring the calm sigh of relief, as seen in the last Star Trek film. The whole dancing thing (let's not forget, it was at a funeral and street part in one) was a wince-inducing scene for me.

As for ANH, it's the ending again. It's okay that they had an award ceremony, but did they have to have it on Yavin 4? They knew the Empire knew they were there and, sure, they could have been reeling from the loss of the Death Star, but the fact remains that they still knew they were there, so, really, wouldn't it have made much more sense to get out of there and then have the ceremony on another planet?
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Knight Joined: 18 Nov 2011 Posts: 442

Heres my thoughts on the entire saga

TPM. The set up of the franchise for a new generation of fans. No luke han etc, all politics, jar jar and the gungans in general were annoying. Maul not in it enough. Highlights the three way lightsaber battle and the final Obi-Wan Maul clash.
Find it hard to believe Anakin would not have been blown out of the sky in his craft with or without the force. The Boonta Podrace was enjoyable but the movie was slow in parts. Was never going to live up to ANH and it didnt

AOTC Better then TPM and had a more SW vibe. Enjoyed the pursuit of Zam Wessell and the Geonosian arena was good. Introducing Boba as an unaltered clone was ok even if Jango dominated and Jango died a bit too easy for me even if it was Mace who killed him. The inevitable marriage of Padme and Anakin. Great to see Yoda finally in action.

ROTS Vader finally is revealed. Order 66. Sidious is revealed. We knew that anyway. Darkest chapter of the saga. Links to the original trilogy. Luke and Leia are born but Leia was only with Padme for seconds yet remembers her mother better then Luke ho was born first. Big inconsistency. Anakin/Obi-Wan fight. For me its not the best fight of the movies but Ill get to that. Best film of the prequels.

ANH. The first one. The original still has the best storytelling, the best atmosphere of the movies and the amazing Battle Of Yavin. Han and Chewie. Luke and Leias swing across the death star. Vaders entrance on the Tantive iv.

ESB Best film of the series. The big reveal first time around but if watching it in sequence isnt that big a deal. Han and Leias relationship. Boba Fett. The asteroid chase. Cloud City. It has everything. Battle Of Hoth, wampas etc.

ROTJ. Great movie too and the one I have seen the most. Love the vader/luke fight. ewoks were ok, the gungans were worse. It had to wrap up the saga so to some people not as good. Speeder bike chase was cool. Love the biker scouts.

TFU. Enjoyed the first one but not so much the second.
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"You see that I was right, now, dont you?. The truth is written in blood"

Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4434 Location: Korriban

As previously done, I'll review the entire saga. Spoiler alert: several of you are not going to be surprised at all haha

The Phantom Menace: Its ok. No more, no less, but when I saw it even at 11 it was a pretty big let down. I'll say that and I still saw it about 9 or 10 times in the theatre. Now the movie itself is decent. We had excellent deliveries from McGregor and Neeson, but that's where it falls apart. Every single other character actor fails miserably. Jake Lloyd is awful and Portman is stone. Jar Jar Binks is the single most obnoxious character, and while Lucas defended him he realized he was making an adult saga and all but removed him from the next few films. And if you still enjoy this one remember, Jake Lloyd says "yippee".

Attack of the Clones: Hayden Christiansen is one of the worst actors to make the screen in the modern age, and here's the proof. If this weren't Star Wars it would have been panned completely. Great graphics and crazy battle scene aside, this was drug down by the unbelievable love story and the contradictions with original source material seemingly for no reason other than Lucas felt like it. Sad to say this is the biggest weak point in the trilogy, and no flash and bang could save it.

Revenge of the Sith: I don't understand while this is hailed as the best of the saga so often, but its better than the other prequels. I think that the graphics are an improvement and the best of the series, but the plot still seemed a bit rushed and completely disjointed from the previous film by the attempted use of supplemental material. The intro was fantastic, but full understanding of what the heck happened relied on either reading Labyrinth of Evil or the first animated Clone Wars series, and that just bothered me. Lucas has really begun to understand how popular his EU is and decided he wanted his own, and he used it to spawn this new G-Canon nightmare we have today. Aside from that Portman and Christiansen are still beyond awful. The end was bad to, as Leia has memories of her mother and she died in birth...come on George, can you have the foresight to not contradict your own work at least? Ugh. Plus, she died of a broken heart? Seriously, that's just bad bad writing.

A New Hope: When you think of Star Wars, you think of the intro to this movie. You think of Alec Guiness portraying Obi-Wan. You think of Luke and Han shooting Tie Fighters in the final scene, its just gorgeous. Its a bit dry and the archetypal characters will seem obvious but other than that its fun and to be honest I love that. Not a perfect film, but definitely fun and one heck of an adventure.

Empire Strikes Back: Perfect as a film. Separates the characters and allows them to grow apart from reliance on the relationships. Introduction of Lando and created Han as a good bad boy. Perfect.

Return of the Jedi: Ewoks aside, this wasn't bad. The final fight between Luke and Vader is beautiful and probably the most emotional of the trilogy (if RotS hadn't been flashier) and it is just one of the best moments. Overall a good film.
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Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

A while ago I watched all the movies again, and I was taken aback by TPM - Because I liked it. Don't get me wrong, I liked it when I was it in '99, but then I went off it for a while, and then I came to be ambivalent towards it, then accepting. It was only until recently that I began to like it. Don't get me wrong, I still feel it lacks for certain aspects; most, I am sure, you are all aware of, being Star Wars fans. But I enjoyed the feel of it. It felt closer to the original films, moreso when compared to eps II and III, in the grittiness of it. It felt more tactile, more real. Beyond that, I almost fell in love again with the underwater scenes, the Gungan culture and architecture, Naboo. Even Coruscant wasn't that bad.
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Gotta be honest, I always liked TPM, even *whispers* Jar Jar didn't annoy me all that much.

AotC I hate, I really struggle to watch the "romance" scenes and the film just kinda drags without really going anywhere. Yoda fighting just kinda bugs me, it goes against the way he was charaterized in the OT, at least IMO.

RotJ is my favorite Star Wars film, it was the first one I saw, as a kid I loved the Ewoks, as I got older I came to appreciate the final scenes, with the Emperor, Luke and Vader, the music, the lighting, most of the dialogue, everything is just done brilliantly.

My favorite scene in the saga is actually from Revenge, when Palpatine is telling the senate about organising the Empire for peace and security, intermingled with Anakin killing all the seperatist leaders, its a great juxtaposition and works really well, at least for me.

I guess for The Force Unleashed I would fall into the "meh" group. I enjoyed the games, and the storyline within the game, kinda wish it had been an infinity story though *shrugs*

EUC Staff Joined: 09 Nov 2011 Posts: 1204 Location: Nirn

Dov, I completely agree. I didn't mind Jar Jar the first time I watched when I was eleven, but I watched it for the second time a few weeks ago, and I joined the I hate Jar Jar bandwagon.

AotC worst of the Saga, no question.

Favourite scene is probably the execution of Order 66, Cantina Scene, Mustafar battle and anything in Jabba's palace, including the Pit of Carkoon. Order 66 might be the best though.
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There's always a bigger fish - Qui Gon Jinn.

You shall learn that history is an intricate weaving of many events. No one thing can be understood without the proper context.

The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.

Well, I was somewhat older than 11 when I saw Jar Jar for the first time Wink

he's a bit irritating sometimes, but I don't find him half as annoying as some people seem to, I've met more annoying real people Laughing

Knight Joined: 18 Nov 2011 Posts: 442

I was in my mid twenties when I saw Jar Jar. I realised he was put in for the kids but he did nothing for me. He wasnt funny at all.

Maul was only in the movie for about 15 minutes but he made the movie while both Pernilla August and Liam Neeson add a certain dignity to it.

I watched the prequel trilogy with one of my best friends. After he saw ROTS he still said he preferred TPM.
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"You see that I was right, now, dont you?. The truth is written in blood"

EUC Staff Joined: 09 Nov 2011 Posts: 1204 Location: Nirn

Knight Joined: 18 Nov 2011 Posts: 442

He also indirectly aided Palpatine in the senate.

Thats unforgivable Laughing

The film dragged in parts. It was a set up for the whole saga but still it was boring in places.

Maul revealing his dual lightsaber in the hangar is as good an entrance as Vader ever got though.
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"You see that I was right, now, dont you?. The truth is written in blood"