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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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You're forgetting one thing here with the Lost Tribe. Now this sticks out in my mind because I just reread it last night. Before Luke even knew about the Lost Tribe, they went after him with the express purpose of killing him.

And frankly I don't really care if you think my post was bull. You're the one selectively picking out things to fit your pov.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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So you're saying that it's ok that the Jedi kill Sith without warning and offering a choice, if they are trying to kill them. But Sith are just evil for doing the same thing.

I'm not picking and choosing anything. I just don't agree with your opinion that Sith kill Jedi simply because they are evil.

Every single time Jacen went into direct combat with a Jedi, the Jedi began the fight. And only one of those fights were the Jedi trying to capture rather then kill him. There's no sign of him going out and killing Jedi because they were in his way. It actually read, to me, that he really didn't want to kill the Jedi, because many of them were good friends of his. He did everything he could to neutralize them without having to kill them.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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On the Mara assassination thing: Mara did go after Jacen with the intention of killing him because he was a Sith Lord. That in now way should have corrupted her though because countless Jedi before her did the same thing. Mace Windu did it (but failed), and Obi Wan and Yoda trained Luke with the intention of him assassinating his own father, and they weren't even going to tell him.

Jedi kill Sith. It's just that simple.

And as far as Jacen's self-defense clause, that's also silly. He knew that he'd chosen to be a Sith and that would make him an enemy of all Jedi. Him being "selfless" meant he was perfectly okay with that. When Mara confronted him, that more or less tested his sincerity to sticking it out with the Sith thing. He killed Mara and thus stuck it out. He didn't have to kill her, he could have gave up his Sith path and turned himself in. There was no need for him to "defend" himself. His reaction meant he had decided to kill Mara to prove his devotion to the Sith.

Now the Sith sacrifice thing makes sense. To be a Sith Master you have to sacrifice the things you hold dear in order to thoroughly give yourself up to the dark side. By killing Mara, Jacen never really did that because he still had Allana. And Allana blew his whole selflessness rational out the window. Jacen didn't care about peace in the galaxy, he cared about Allana having to endure wars and violence. He did everything for his selfish attachment to Allana and his naive belief that he could end war forever.

All in all it was a bad move in the story.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Must... not... get... involved...


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Mara offered Jacen the chance of redemption on Coruscant. This idea of redemption comes more from Luke's experience with his father -- which is a unique one. As Skuldren said, Jedi have never had a problem killing Sith -- or Sith killing Jedi for that matter.

It's the eternal war of Light vs. dark.

No matter how you dress it up, Jacen was going down a dark path which in itself negates the whole selfless argument.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Oh Jacen's journey did take him to the point where he did become extremely selfish, I'm not going to argue that. However at the point where he first decided to began Sith training, I do think it was done out of selflessness rather then for any selfish reason. Jacen's mistake was that he no longer believed in the Dark Side at the time. Without that threat, he saw nothing wrong with Sith teachings and he was arrogant, or as Nedara put it fanatic, enough to believe he could master the teachings without falling.

After he fell he became selfish and as evil as any Sith Lord. But at the time of his falling, he was utterly selfless in his reasonings. It started with wanting to make the galaxy as safer place and ensure no child has to live through wars like he did. In the end it became wanting to protect his own child from those things and he no longer cared about the rest. Part of his fall included the change from complete selflessness to utter selfishness.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Except that selfless thing has been retconned already in FOTJ.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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If I can change one thing, it would now be this: instead of becoming a Sith to get ultimate power to save the galaxy, Jacen eats a bota mushroom. Problem solved.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
Mara offered Jacen the chance of redemption on Coruscant. This idea of redemption comes more from Luke's experience with his father -- which is a unique one. As Skuldren said, Jedi have never had a problem killing Sith -- or Sith killing Jedi for that matter.

It's the eternal war of Light vs. dark.

No matter how you dress it up, Jacen was going down a dark path which in itself negates the whole selfless argument.


Alright, I've got to reply some manner of disagreement.

First, in Abyss, Mara is clearly atoning for her attempt to kill Jacen. That she didn't tell Luke what she was doing also suggests that she knew it was wrong. If she was interested in redeeming her nephew, she would have told Luke and they would have figured something else out, rather than one person confronting him alone. Instead, she felt Ben was threatened, and instinctively reacted to that in an attempt to eliminate the threat with the utmost expedience, regardless of morality.

Second, I think that the idea of redemption is the boon in Luke's hero's journey, and isn't supposed to be a one-off thing that only works once. It's supposed to be something that the Jedi ALWAYS do. It's the only way to destroy the Sith, to be redeeming them back into being Jedi. Fighting fire with fire doesn't work. In the movies, that's it, and there are no more Sith, and Luke helped destroy them through that means. Although I guess you could get into a more drawn out discussion about how Anakin did it by destroying them from within and so forth.

Obviously more problematic after the NJO when every single story decided that the Sith were the only villains worth using, and in the case of the Lost Tribe in which there's no personal connection to the individuals, it's more difficult, not to mention the sheer numbers, but I think Vestara will inevitably demonstrate that it's possible.


Last edited by Crash Override on Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Cerrinea wrote:
Except that selfless thing has been retconned already in FOTJ.


I'm not entirely sure. At the most we've seen people have concerns about him during his travels and that he saw a vision and he desperately wanted to change. Going down the Sith path to prevent the vision from happening could be a selfless reason, though we need to know more about who was in the vision.

I haven't seen anything that flat out suggests that his selfless reasonings have been retconned. What scene are you thinking of that makes you say it's been changed.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
First, in Abyss, Mara is clearly atoning for her attempt to kill Jacen.


Actually, she's atoning for the state she placed herself in to kill him; that she'd gone after him as the Emperor's Hand and not as a Jedi.

Quote:
Second, I think that the idea of redemption is the boon in Luke's hero's journey, and isn't supposed to be a one-off thing that only works once. It's supposed to be something that the Jedi ALWAYS do. It's the only way to destroy the Sith, to be redeeming them back into being Jedi.


It's the boon in Luke's Hero's journey but those circumstances were unique. Vader was Luke's father. Besides, it's stated more than once in FOTJ that Jedi do offer redemption -- to everyone, not just Sith. When it isn't accepted, they then remove the threat. I see nothing un-Jedi in that.

And not all Sith began as Jedi. The Lost Tribe certainly didn't. They have a long history and culture as Sith. As I've said, redemption is a choice. What would you have the Jedi do when redemption is refused? Just let the Sith go on about their business?

The problem with LOTF is the massive mis-characterization in it. This is some of the retconning going on in FOTJ -- getting characters back on track character-wise. It has to be reconciled in some way. Thus Mara's remorse in the Lake for being turned into the Emperor's Hand in LOTF.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
Actually, she's atoning for the state she placed herself in to kill him; that she'd gone after him as the Emperor's Hand and not as a Jedi.


If this is the reason why she's suffering (and she does say that), then Denning really does have absolutely zero depth to his writing and just has characters talk for the sake of it. Later on the same page she says "It's not the result that counts, but the action. Jacen's goals were noble; he acted for the good of the galaxy. But his acts were horrific, and nothing can change that."

Okay, so Mara is suffering for going after Jacen as a hunter and not a Jedi, id est bad intentions but she didn't commit a horrific act, while Jacen is suffering for having noble intentions but committing horrific acts?

It's like Denning can't make up his mind whether the intent is the problem or the act itself. I think he read Traitor and got really confused.

A distinction that Mara makes in the scene also is that Jacen wasn't a Sith Lord until after he killed her. I don't know why that distinction actually matters, unless some Force deity that Denning has constructed has decreed Sith Lords fair game to kill on sight.


Last edited by Crash Override on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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I agree with you, LivingJediDream. Plus, Jedi no always offered redemption. For example, I can't remember Luke offering redemption to Lomi Plo, even when he offered it once and again to Raynar.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think my Jedi role model, Qui-Gon, actually conflicts with my redemption claim on one occasion. Granted, he also fights Maul without any sort of parley, but he has some shades of JINO in "Last Stand at Ord Mantell." I wish I could find a picture from the comic to adequately demonstrate what he does.

Of course, my general premise is that the Jedi weren't privy to this knowledge during the prequels, though Qui-Gon was the most enlightened of the old Jedi. I would think that he would actually be one to try to redeem Anakin.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Really, Nedara, Lomi Plo had made it pretty clear that she was going to remain who she was. Remember this is the woman, creature, what have you who was trying to ignite a huge galactic war.

Also Raynar wasn't a Sith.
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