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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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LivingJediDream wrote:
From a lore standpoint, both seem to be dark and unnatural abilities a la Sith alchemy.


I'm not so sure about that. What lore are you talking about? And I'm not so sure how that would be any more unnatural then someone using the Force to extend their own life.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Werehunter wrote:
LivingJediDream wrote:
From a lore standpoint, both seem to be dark and unnatural abilities a la Sith alchemy.


I'm not so sure about that. What lore are you talking about? And I'm not so sure how that would be any more unnatural then someone using the Force to extend their own life.


Which is unnatural (see ROTS). Very Happy

Since a normal full-term human pregnancy is 38 to 42 weeks in gestation, anything faster or slower than that is unnatural.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:25 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Maybe the question is if it would be more unnatural-or unethical-than heal oneself faster than normal rate.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I think you need to separate healing out from the 'giving life' issue.

If you think about it all medical treatment is speeding up the healing process. You're assisting a natural process.

But to mess with the process of creating life just seems unnatural to most everyone I think.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:33 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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I disagree. In fact, what Force-sensitives do with a healing trance it's quite different from helping their bodies. Imagine a cut, or a bruise. It isn't a matter of how to heal them. They have to accelerate the process, to make their cells duplicate and grow faster. Just like pregnancy.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:36 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Cerrinea wrote:
The story was kind of ridiculous all the way around. She's pregnant so Skirata sent her off to this really crappy planet where fighting is going on (she and Darman had met there). Then she has this crisis because she sped up the pregnancy so Skirata then takes her to this resort-type planet.

She also sped up the pregnancy to keep it from Darman -- which Skirata made her do. Then Skirata turns around and tells Darman about the baby after it's born.

The whole thing made no sense whatsoever.


This is ridiculously off-topic, but I must respond. I didn't find it odd at all. Kal got very upset that he felt Etain was using one of his boys (understandably, as a father figure, he thought of his boys as too sheltered/young to be ready for parenting), and so blamed her for it. I can see that as nothing but a natural reaction. But he also feels for her, as he does love her, and she is carrying his "grandchild", in a sense. So he has conflicting emotions, also understandable.

He doesn't want Darman to know about the baby, as he feels he isn't ready for such a responsibility. This is wrong of him, but again understandable. After the baby is born, though, he again has conflicting emotions and realizes Darman needs to know his son before it's too late.

I don't see any of that as convoluted. I actually found it very realistic as far as how bad a situation can turn when someone is trying to protect those they love by wrongly stepping in and making decisions for them. I've seen this happen in real life so many times (not this particular situation, but the general points), I found it that much more emotionally touching. But maybe that's just me.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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@ Mara: I found it total soap opera.

@ Nedara: What Force adepts do when healing their bodies is assist the immune system.

The cellular process going on in pregnancy is entirely different.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Cerrinea wrote:
@ Nedara: What Force adepts do when healing their bodies is assist the immune system.

The cellular process going on in pregnancy is entirely different.


How so? In Sacrifice, Mara used a healing trance to cure her wounds after her fight with Lumiya. You don't need your immunity system to heal bruises. SAnd there are a few more examples where immunity system isn't need and Force-sensitives use healing trances.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:56 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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The immune system is what heals the body. The Jedi used trances, crystals, bacta and other means to boost and accelerate the healing process.

From Wookie:

Quote:
Force healing, Force heal, or Cure was a power that used the Force to accelerate the natural healing process rapidly.


The natural healing process is what the immune system does.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Sorry, but not. The immunity system protects the body. It protects your from viruses and bacterias. In shorts, from outside invasions.

The healing process of open wounds is achieved through your cells duplicating and growing so they can replace the ones damaged or dead. That's the problem with neurons. They are the only cells which can't duplicate themselves.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Actually neurons can regenerate.

The immune system does aid in healing. As soon as you're injured the immune system responds with various actions that begin the healing process. Part of that process is to trigger cellular regeneration. Please don't argue with me about this. Not only is this the area I got my degree in, I had a 20 year career in it.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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So we are saying the same thing? To heal someone needs to regenerate his/her cells?


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:25 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, you're saying that cell regeneration is outside of the immune system response, and that's wrong. Of course cells need to regenerate for the body to heal, but it's all part of the immune system process.

Obviously Jedi couldn't just make cells regenerate or Anakin wouldn't have needed an artificial arm. They could have just used the Force to grow him a new one.

I do think part of the problem though is that the EU has been all over the place with this Jedi healing stuff.

The difference with pregnancy is that it's not cell regeneration. It's cellular division and cells that are unique and separate from the host body. The cells are already rapidly dividing. Speeding that up would be a very bad idea. Slowing it down would probably not be as bad, but it's still unnatural.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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Now, since we agree cells have to regenerate, let's talk hypothetically.

If some sustances-enzimes or whatever, you are the expert here-can "accelerate" the cellular division (we agree any cell have to divide itself to create new ones, right?) why is so impossible to imagine a Jedei female can use the same technique to make... how is said? Mother cells? duplicate themselves faster? And later, to make any cell from any tissue in the fetus do the same?


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:56 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Technically I suppose the Jedi wouldn't have to make "mother" cells since conception encoded everything necessary to produce a fully formed offspring.

Also you're really stepping into "creating life' territory here, which as far as we know only Darth Plagieus had learned how to do. And that was considered well out of bounds for Jedi. I just don't see Jedi going about "creating" cells. I do see manipulating a pregnancy to either slow it up or fast forward it as not a Jedi thing.

Tenel Ka had to think of her and her child's vulnerability in regards to Hapan politics. Etain purposely got pregnant so each of them were both off the path of Jedi thinking. I don't say that as a rationalization for doing it, but to illustrate that neither of them were adhering strictly to the Jedi way.
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