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The chosen one. Who is it?
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Crash Override wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Anakin. Refer to his conception by the much hated midi-chlorians.


Or Plagueis..?


Has that ever been confirmed by an official source? Honest question, 'cause I can't recall.


Whenever people discuss the possibility of Plagueis creating Anakin, I put forth one critical point:

Plagueis died 4-5 years before Anakin was born.

It is possible that Palpatine learned it and did it, but I don't like that idea. Alternatively, it's possible that Plagueis did the ritual, but without knowing where or how or when it would actually come to be.

But then you have to ask this too: shouldn't the Sith predict that the Chosen One, in his act of "bringing balance to the Force" might destroy the Sith? If so, why create him? Instead, I might interpret Palpatine's actions as identifying who the Chosen One is, and then de-clawing him to ensure that he couldn't harm the Sith. Lotta good it did, but still good forward-thinking.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Crash Override wrote:
The Force was out of balance in favor of the dark side in Episode II. That's why the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished. Order 66 just made it even worse.


The Jedi live in harmony with the Force and have no affect on the balance. It's the Sith who cause the imbalance.

From the mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas and Bill Moyers:

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In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.

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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:32 am Reply with quote  
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  wookie_inked
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Taral-DLOS wrote:


Plagueis died 4-5 years before Anakin was born.

It is possible that Palpatine learned it and did it, but I don't like that idea. Alternatively, it's possible that Plagueis did the ritual, but without knowing where or how or when it would actually come to be.

you just summed up how I always figure it went


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Crash Override wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Anakin. Refer to his conception by the much hated midi-chlorians.


Or Plagueis..?


Has that ever been confirmed by an official source? Honest question, 'cause I can't recall.


Whenever people discuss the possibility of Plagueis creating Anakin, I put forth one critical point:

Plagueis died 4-5 years before Anakin was born..


Not true.

Wookieepedia is basing this upon The New Essential Chronology. Under the entry "Failing Republic, Thriving Sith," it is stated that Sidious killed Plagueis, and the date range for this entry is given as "52-46 BBY." This is where Wookieepedia gets its date from, and Anakin's birth, by necessity, is in 42-41 BBY to account for him being 9 years old in The Phantom Menace, seemingly precluding his creation at the hands of Plagueis.

However, the aforementioned NEC entry states "Palpatine... grew concerned over his Master's stated intentions to create life from nothing. The child that resulted from this Force miracle, Plagueis insisted, would be the living embodiment of the Force itself -- and at that moment, Sidious knew his Master was discussing Sidious' replacement. Soon after Sidious killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep. The work necessary to create a Force-conceived child continued, however. It is unclear whether Plagueis had initiated the process before his death, or whether Sidious instead implemented his former Master's scheme for his own dark purposes."

Later in the same entry: "On Tatooine, the slave Shmi Skywalker had given birth to a child more powerful in the Force than any other in history -- the apparent product of forbidden research by Darth Plagueis and taken up by Darth Sidious.. The boy, Anakin Skywalker, had seemingly not been conceived by a human father, but by the midi-chlorians themselves. Palpatine kept a close watch on Anakin as the boy grew. If trained as a Sith apprentice, such a child could be vastly more powerful than Maul."

Wookieepedia manages to take a source which seems rather overwhelmingly in favor of Plagueis creating Anakin, and twist it to suggest that he did not. Which is why I take anything on Wookieepedia with a grain of salt. And the book Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader has Palpatine's POV state that he doesn't know the technique.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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To me, it doesn't seem to lean one way or another in favor or against the idea.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
Wookieepedia is basing this upon The New Essential Chronology. Under the entry "Failing Republic, Thriving Sith," it is stated that Sidious killed Plagueis, and the date range for this entry is given as "52-46 BBY." This is where Wookieepedia gets its date from, and Anakin's birth, by necessity, is in 42-41 BBY to account for him being 9 years old in The Phantom Menace, seemingly precluding his creation at the hands of Plagueis.

However, the aforementioned NEC entry states "Palpatine... grew concerned over his Master's stated intentions to create life from nothing. The child that resulted from this Force miracle, Plagueis insisted, would be the living embodiment of the Force itself -- and at that moment, Sidious knew his Master was discussing Sidious' replacement. Soon after Sidious killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep. The work necessary to create a Force-conceived child continued, however. It is unclear whether Plagueis had initiated the process before his death, or whether Sidious instead implemented his former Master's scheme for his own dark purposes."

Later in the same entry: "On Tatooine, the slave Shmi Skywalker had given birth to a child more powerful in the Force than any other in history -- the apparent product of forbidden research by Darth Plagueis and taken up by Darth Sidious.. The boy, Anakin Skywalker, had seemingly not been conceived by a human father, but by the midi-chlorians themselves. Palpatine kept a close watch on Anakin as the boy grew. If trained as a Sith apprentice, such a child could be vastly more powerful than Maul."


These quotes from Wookie are direct quotes from Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, so it is canon as of now -- until it's contradicted by future canon.

For myself, I agree with Padme. The midi-chlorians conceived Anakin, but no one knows at this point exactly what caused the midi-chlorians to do that.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
Quote:
Wookieepedia is basing this upon The New Essential Chronology. Under the entry "Failing Republic, Thriving Sith," it is stated that Sidious killed Plagueis, and the date range for this entry is given as "52-46 BBY." This is where Wookieepedia gets its date from, and Anakin's birth, by necessity, is in 42-41 BBY to account for him being 9 years old in The Phantom Menace, seemingly precluding his creation at the hands of Plagueis.

However, the aforementioned NEC entry states "Palpatine... grew concerned over his Master's stated intentions to create life from nothing. The child that resulted from this Force miracle, Plagueis insisted, would be the living embodiment of the Force itself -- and at that moment, Sidious knew his Master was discussing Sidious' replacement. Soon after Sidious killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep. The work necessary to create a Force-conceived child continued, however. It is unclear whether Plagueis had initiated the process before his death, or whether Sidious instead implemented his former Master's scheme for his own dark purposes."

Later in the same entry: "On Tatooine, the slave Shmi Skywalker had given birth to a child more powerful in the Force than any other in history -- the apparent product of forbidden research by Darth Plagueis and taken up by Darth Sidious.. The boy, Anakin Skywalker, had seemingly not been conceived by a human father, but by the midi-chlorians themselves. Palpatine kept a close watch on Anakin as the boy grew. If trained as a Sith apprentice, such a child could be vastly more powerful than Maul."


These quotes from Wookie are direct quotes from Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, so it is canon as of now -- until it's contradicted by future canon.

For myself, I agree with Padme. The midi-chlorians conceived Anakin, but no one knows at this point exactly what caused the midi-chlorians to do that.


Wookieepedia bases Plagueis' death date off of the entry from the New Essential Chronology being dated those years. Anakin's birth is listed under that same timeframe. I'm just confounded how the Wookieepedia editor found those quotes, which outright say Anakin was created by either Plagueis or Sidous, and twisted it to say he wasn't. Which is frankly why I don't like the continuity crowd, along with these sort of arguments.

Also, I'm not sure what quotes from Jedi vs Sith you're referring to?

Personally, I don't think the Expanded Universe is even in a position to make a declarative statement about whether Anakin was created by the Force or Plagueis. I think Lucas purposely left it ambiguous, so I don't understand why the New Essential Chronology essentially said Plagueis created Anakin, or why the Jedi vs Sith book said the opposite.

I'm not a fan of canon debates like this either.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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What I'm saying is that everything you quoted from Wookie is directly from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. I know it's from there because I own that book and just read it this morning.

The Essential Guide to the Force doesn't in any way make a declarative statement that Anakin was created by Plagueis.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Cerrinea wrote:
What I'm saying is that everything you quoted from Wookie is directly from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. I know it's from there because I own that book and just read it this morning.

The Essential Guide to the Force doesn't in any way make a declarative statement that Anakin was created by Plagueis.


The stuff I quoted I quoted out of The New Essential Chronology, not Wookieepedia. I'm saying that's where Wookieepedia got the date it assigned to Plagueis' death.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Master Skid
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Right here is my point of view.

Quote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.
Yoda: A prophecy that misread could have been.



It seems to me that we have a firm understanding that Anakin is the chosen one, but i disagree from a certain point of view. I think that the chosen one is the Skywalker name. We have Anakin who falls to the dark side for so many years when by the will of the Force he learns that he has a Son that we all know is Luke. With his son being fried like a piece of bacon before his very eyes, surely remembering his only son begging for him to join the Light side again, so with that he the Sith Lord Sidious to his death, becoming once again a Jedi and bringing balance to the Force. Now fast forward 10 years to Dark Empire (I think its ten years after ROTJ) we see Sidious reborn and takes Luke to the Dark side and underneath his wing (If he was a Sith or dark Jedi is something to discuss but for this situation I am saying he is a Sith Wink ). Now who brings Luke back from the Dark side? Yes that's right Leia. A Skywalker. She brings Luke back from the Dark side and Helps him destroy Sidious once and for all. Fast forward another 30 years Legacy of the Force series and we see Darth Caedus rise up from the former Jedi Jacen Solo. We see him turn his back on his Family all together, his parents, his twin sister, his aunt, uncle, cousin, even his wife and child eventually. Bringing war to the Galaxy once again only his twin Sister can kill him. Yes Jaina Solo kills her brother to destroy the Sith and bring back balance to the force.

Whoa there Skid! You said Jaina Solo then. But didn't you say the Skywalker name is the Chosen one?

Yes I did but remember her Mother is Leia Organa Solo. Sister of Luke Skywalker so even though her last name is different her DNA is still half Skywalker.

Now The Legacy Era and my personal favorite at the moment is still an open ending. We have Cade Skywalker the last descendant (Apart from Nat) of the Skywalker name. Can he defeat Darth Kryat and bring balance to the Force? With Legacy war out i don't know what happening at the moment so please no one spoil it for me Very Happy Thank you.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Jedi Master Skid wrote:
Right here is my point of view.

Quote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.
Yoda: A prophecy that misread could have been.



It seems to me that we have a firm understanding that Anakin is the chosen one, but i disagree from a certain point of view. I think that the chosen one is the Skywalker name. We have Anakin who falls to the dark side for so many years when by the will of the Force he learns that he has a Son that we all know is Luke. With his son being fried like a piece of bacon before his very eyes, surely remembering his only son begging for him to join the Light side again, so with that he the Sith Lord Sidious to his death, becoming once again a Jedi and bringing balance to the Force. Now fast forward 10 years to Dark Empire (I think its ten years after ROTJ) we see Sidious reborn and takes Luke to the Dark side and underneath his wing (If he was a Sith or dark Jedi is something to discuss but for this situation I am saying he is a Sith Wink ). Now who brings Luke back from the Dark side? Yes that's right Leia. A Skywalker. She brings Luke back from the Dark side and Helps him destroy Sidious once and for all. Fast forward another 30 years Legacy of the Force series and we see Darth Caedus rise up from the former Jedi Jacen Solo. We see him turn his back on his Family all together, his parents, his twin sister, his aunt, uncle, cousin, even his wife and child eventually. Bringing war to the Galaxy once again only his twin Sister can kill him. Yes Jaina Solo kills her brother to destroy the Sith and bring back balance to the force.

Whoa there Skid! You said Jaina Solo then. But didn't you say the Skywalker name is the Chosen one?

Yes I did but remember her Mother is Leia Organa Solo. Sister of Luke Skywalker so even though her last name is different her DNA is still half Skywalker.

Now The Legacy Era and my personal favorite at the moment is still an open ending. We have Cade Skywalker the last descendant (Apart from Nat) of the Skywalker name. Can he defeat Darth Kryat and bring balance to the Force? With Legacy war out i don't know what happening at the moment so please no one spoil it for me Very Happy Thank you.



For me Anakin is the Chosen One- but due to his conception this allows for every one of his descendants to be Chosen as well- the Chosen One bloodline is fated to stand up in times of darkness it would seem.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Cerrinea wrote:


For myself, I agree with Padme. The midi-chlorians conceived Anakin, but no one knows at this point exactly what caused the midi-chlorians to do that.


I tend to think that the Force will try to right itself when thrown out of balance. Perhaps I'm assigning too much sentience to an energy field, but that's my current viewpoint until Lucas or some other canon states that Plagueis was directly involved.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:23 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Crash Override wrote:
Queen Padmè Skywalker wrote:
Anakin. Refer to his conception by the much hated midi-chlorians.


Or Plagueis..?


Has that ever been confirmed by an official source? Honest question, 'cause I can't recall.


Whenever people discuss the possibility of Plagueis creating Anakin, I put forth one critical point:

Plagueis died 4-5 years before Anakin was born.

It is possible that Palpatine learned it and did it, but I don't like that idea. Alternatively, it's possible that Plagueis did the ritual, but without knowing where or how or when it would actually come to be.

But then you have to ask this too: shouldn't the Sith predict that the Chosen One, in his act of "bringing balance to the Force" might destroy the Sith? If so, why create him? Instead, I might interpret Palpatine's actions as identifying who the Chosen One is, and then de-clawing him to ensure that he couldn't harm the Sith. Lotta good it did, but still good forward-thinking.


I'm withholding judgement of whether Plagueis created Anakin or not until the book comes out. Even then, it may not be entirely clear. It might just focus on one event, not connected to these things, or it may be a complete biography, assassination and all.

But I did want to address one thing: It could be possible that Plagueis or Sidious created Anakin because they wanted to have the Sith'ari, the 'Chosen One' of the Sith. I find it entirely possible that there was more to the Chosen One prophecy than what we've heard so far. For instance, from what I hear, it merely says 'to bring balance' to the Force. The Sith may have believed that balance meant the wiping out of the Jedi and the dominance of the Sith. Or, alternatively, there could be added passages to the prophecy, which the Jedi had kept hidden, out of the 'official' version of the prophecy that later Jedi came to know - if true, those passages could concern the Chosen One being a force for the Sith, against the Jedi.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:42 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Who is to say that the Sith ever knew about the prophecy at all until Anakin or Dooku told Palpatine about it? I'm certainly willing to admit there's something that might suggest it's the case, but I'm not aware of it. Given that, I see no reason to believe that the Sith knew about a Jedi prophecy until a time in which Anakin might have confided to Palpatine about his status as the Chosen One or Dooku informed Palpatine upon becoming Tyranus.

The quote I posted earlier from the NEC says "The child that resulted from this Force miracle, Plagueis insisted, would be the living embodiment of the Force itself -- and at that moment, Sidious knew his Master was discussing Sidious' replacement." The Sith Rule of Two lineage is all about each apprentice surpassing the power of the master, thus ensuring that each Sith "generation" is more powerful than the prior. To create the most powerful Force user in the galaxy and have him be a Sith Lord would be desirable to the Banite Sith, and that's precisely what Anakin was, and reason enough to create him.

I think if the Expanded Universe answers it one way or another, that unless George Lucas gave his blessing, that it's a bad idea because George could very well give the opposite answer at a later time. And Lucas left it purposely ambiguous but inserted symbolism that heavily implies that it was Plagueis -- after earlier drafts had Palpatine claiming that he created Anakin. The idea was obviously in Lucas' mind, and I'm glad he didn't come out and say it. But I still think that he was trying to put the idea in the audience's mind, but left the wiggle room for those that dislike the idea to disbelieve it. I also think that if the Expanded Universe answers it one way or another, that it's symptomatic of the EU's tendency to cater toward the Wookieepedia crowd. Not every mystery needs an answer, and sometimes the question is more interesting than the answer.

Personally, I don't think Plagueis being the creator diminishes Anakin's role as the Chosen One, because whether the Force works through cellular organelles, or has a Sith Lord act as the instrument of his order's ultimate destruction, it works for me. And I'm sort of partial to the irony of the latter, not to mention that it would be another repetition of the self-destruction motif that the Sith represent. And it would add another layer to the ending of the saga: Luke is redeeming his father, and Anakin is destroying his metaphorical father that is the Sith, the inverse of the former. Which I also appreciate the idea of, in addition to the general notion that Anakin's last act was "balanced" in the sense that it was a selfless betrayal.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:17 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I don't like the prophecies remaining ongoing. I like them better when they are fulfilled. Bane was the Sith'ari. Anakin was the Chosen One. Now if only they could wrap up Jaina's. Her Sword of the Jedi thing just never seems to end.
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