Force Philosophy v1

You know, I've been getting that feeling, too. Which is both very exciting, but also quite worrying. It's exciting because (even though I've only recently read the Legacy comics) the Imperial Knights have been one of the things I love about the EU, and I want to see more about them. Maybe something, a book, along the lines of Black Fleet (not as badly written, as I am told it is, but that book is on my list because it's said to go into detail about military structure. Facts like that sell a fictional universe to me) where we see a lot of the inner workings, how it came to be, stuff like that.

And worrying because, while it's definitely necessary, it could run the risk - which I'm hoping it won't, but you never know - of cementing bad decisions. Like the Empire becoming slightly sinister, once again, and it needing a reboot - which, if they model the Knights on how they are in the comic, could mean a dramatic change somewhere down the line - which would then need another drastic change to bring them back into line.
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I was thinking earlier today and had a quick thought on the Force and Jedi:

Is it possible to have a regular, light-side Jedi, who respects his code of honour, but serves the CIS?

All of the CIS highers-up tend to be either motivated by personal gain (Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, etc.) are downright evil (Dooku, Ventress) or somewhere in the middle (Grievous; he's a villain who kills civilians and blows up hospitals, but he is a proper warrior, so I don't feel he meets the "evil" category).

But what if there were some middle-management type positions who a) fight in the Clone Wars on the side of the CIS, but b) limited their troops to military targets, and c) had minimal control from the heads of the CIS? Consider Mina and Lux Bonteri, who legitimately favour separatism, but are by no means evil. If Lux Bonteri had been taken to be trained as a Jedi in his infancy, but left the Order to support his mother, would he be a Dark Jedi? I say nay.

So I return to the original question: if a Jedi left the Order to fight alongside the CIS, would he be able to retain his code of ethics, or would be necessarily fall to the Dark Side?
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The Jedi Order though would probably call the Jedi in question a Dark Jedi, or at the least a Rogue Jedi. They might even go so far as to call them Fallen Jedi. But like any war I think good beings fight on all sides of a conflict.

Dass Jennir finds himself siding with his former CIS enemies right after Order 66.
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Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1846

I think the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars for the Galactic Republic were tainted (to clarify, I don't mean any sort of metaphysical taint or corruption of spirit or anything like that). I don't see how it would be different for those fighting for the CIS. Both sides of the conflict were led by a Sith Lord, and both were doing questionable things. The entire war was a contrivance and a show put on by Darth Sidious, and the Jedi played right into it.

But then I think this was a problem for the Jedi Order before the Clone Wars began, because the Jedi Order was allied with the Galactic Republic in the same way that the Jedi are allied with the Force, and the Galactic Republic had become bloated, corrupt, and rotten from within, just as the Force had fallen out of balance (and the former may have contributed to the latter). The Jedi's ability to do good was consequently diminished -- just as their ability to use the Force was diminished -- because their hands were tied by bureaucratic red tape. See: the Naboo Crisis. There's no doubt the Jedi knew the situation needed resolving, but Qui-Gon couldn't even testify to the Galactic Senate, nor did the Jedi send some of their own to resolve the situation.
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Knight Joined: 08 Apr 2011 Posts: 306

Since I don't read the Clone War books or watch the cartoon, I'll say this. I was hoping they would do something like that in Legacy of the Force. To have some Jedi, while not liking Jacen's actions, still remain loyal to the GA because they think the other side is a greater threat.

I also wanted some to agree in principal to the idea that the New Jedi Order do overstep their bounds at times. That they don't always work with the proper authorities when they are working and many of them think they are above the law.

Knight Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 111

Given how the Jedi are fighting for the aggressor of the Clone Wars, and for reasons of tradition over choice, there is nothing immoral about serving the CIS by comparison. They would be labeled traitors for sure, and I'm sure the Force is better off with the destroying of droids than the killing of clones, but there is nothing necessitating their decent into darkness, neither metaphysical nor moral, just from a simple switch of teams.

Well, except one thing. Due to the perspective SW takes, no character I'm aware of ever served the antagonists without also turning evil and/or darksided. Not cause they had to, but because the thematics demanded it. SW is a morality play that strictly limits its shades of gray.
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Master Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Posts: 1846

I don't think that's true of the Star Wars universe intrinsically, but simply due to the focus of the story being told across the films. Perhaps some of the Expanded Universe has taken that as a cue for its stories, but I'd argue that other stories don't maintain that standard.

For instance, I'd definitely argue that the way Thrawn has been written recently (anything besides the Thrawn trilogy) doesn't depict him as evil, and that Pellaeon likewise has never been evil. Zahn has definitely created a lot of Imperial characters that fundamentally aren't greedy or that seek to impose themselves on others, as defines Palpatine or Vader, but are fundamentally loyal to what is viewed as the legitimate government and toward order. Soontir Fel and the Hand of Judgment are other examples.
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"Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth.”

“The world is understood through metaphors. Language is a metaphor-system. Mathematics is a metaphor-system. All real-world schools of magic and religion revolve around the understanding of vast metaphor-systems, symbols as they relate to concepts."

"See, the thing is, everything everyone tells you is a lie. The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it."

Knight Joined: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 111

Well, I was kinda taking for granted that someone serving in the military chain of command for a machine like the Empire (or its Remnant) would qualify. But that gets into the old problem of the morality of being a soldier. I assume there to have been a lack of sympathy for Ozzel among the ESB audience. That is all the measuring stick I really need.

But in comparison to a rogue Jedi, such soldiers have the advantage of no choice. While a rogue Jedi should theoretically have a choice about denying the dark side, their new masters or the cirumstances they are introduced to always drive them towards it anyway, or the same personality that caused them to defect just happens to be one that would be attracted to the dark. In other words, still no actual choice, but a lack thereof caused by plot convenience rather than the soldier's formal duty to perform evil.

Dass Jennir was brought up, and he is a perfect example. His fall was probably more intended to show how the Jedi Purge and war in general drove Jedi to places they were not supposed to go. But interestingly it coincides with him leaving the Republic and "joining" the CIS, even in a story where the CIS is slightly more protagonistic than the Republic/Empire! The precedent never fails AFAIK. It may be arguable for a soldier, but for Jedi and the dark side, it holds up frighteningly well.
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I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.

EUC Staff Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 1137 Location: Kansas

Call me a Sith, but I've always liked the Force Potentium. I wish the Force was less dualistic, more ambiguous. There are a lot of ways to view the Force. It's disappointing that a lot of Force sects introduced in the Bantam Era aren't seen in stories. By calling the Jedi view the "correct" one, I think we're losing some of that mystery. What do you think?
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There could be "heretic" Force sects even if the dualistic Jedi/Sith view is correct. I also wish we would see more Force users besides the usual two.
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I think the deal with the whole "correct" thing, is Jedi are unlikely to ever say the other groups are correct. The key would be a new novel or story that stars a character of a different sect who could then portray the acceptability of their own view, and give readers the opportunity to see that other sects could be "correct."
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
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EUC Staff Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 1137 Location: Kansas

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