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 PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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You know, I've been getting that feeling, too. Which is both very exciting, but also quite worrying. It's exciting because (even though I've only recently read the Legacy comics) the Imperial Knights have been one of the things I love about the EU, and I want to see more about them. Maybe something, a book, along the lines of Black Fleet (not as badly written, as I am told it is, but that book is on my list because it's said to go into detail about military structure. Facts like that sell a fictional universe to me) where we see a lot of the inner workings, how it came to be, stuff like that.

And worrying because, while it's definitely necessary, it could run the risk - which I'm hoping it won't, but you never know - of cementing bad decisions. Like the Empire becoming slightly sinister, once again, and it needing a reboot - which, if they model the Knights on how they are in the comic, could mean a dramatic change somewhere down the line - which would then need another drastic change to bring them back into line.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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I was thinking earlier today and had a quick thought on the Force and Jedi:

Is it possible to have a regular, light-side Jedi, who respects his code of honour, but serves the CIS?

All of the CIS highers-up tend to be either motivated by personal gain (Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, etc.) are downright evil (Dooku, Ventress) or somewhere in the middle (Grievous; he's a villain who kills civilians and blows up hospitals, but he is a proper warrior, so I don't feel he meets the "evil" category).

But what if there were some middle-management type positions who a) fight in the Clone Wars on the side of the CIS, but b) limited their troops to military targets, and c) had minimal control from the heads of the CIS? Consider Mina and Lux Bonteri, who legitimately favour separatism, but are by no means evil. If Lux Bonteri had been taken to be trained as a Jedi in his infancy, but left the Order to support his mother, would he be a Dark Jedi? I say nay.

So I return to the original question: if a Jedi left the Order to fight alongside the CIS, would he be able to retain his code of ethics, or would be necessarily fall to the Dark Side?
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
I was thinking earlier today and had a quick thought on the Force and Jedi:

Is it possible to have a regular, light-side Jedi, who respects his code of honour, but serves the CIS?

All of the CIS highers-up tend to be either motivated by personal gain (Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, etc.) are downright evil (Dooku, Ventress) or somewhere in the middle (Grievous; he's a villain who kills civilians and blows up hospitals, but he is a proper warrior, so I don't feel he meets the "evil" category).

But what if there were some middle-management type positions who a) fight in the Clone Wars on the side of the CIS, but b) limited their troops to military targets, and c) had minimal control from the heads of the CIS? Consider Mina and Lux Bonteri, who legitimately favour separatism, but are by no means evil. If Lux Bonteri had been taken to be trained as a Jedi in his infancy, but left the Order to support his mother, would he be a Dark Jedi? I say nay.

So I return to the original question: if a Jedi left the Order to fight alongside the CIS, would he be able to retain his code of ethics, or would be necessarily fall to the Dark Side?


I'd say as long as they kept the core Jedi ethics they'd be fine in terms of falling to the Dark Side, but they would be labeled traitors. In Jedi: Mace Windu we see (also as in the Republic series) Windu goes to K'kruhk and a group of Jedi who had left to do this- but Sorba (sp) did fall, and thus took a couple down with him. But K'kruhk came back to fight for the republic.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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The Jedi Order though would probably call the Jedi in question a Dark Jedi, or at the least a Rogue Jedi. They might even go so far as to call them Fallen Jedi. But like any war I think good beings fight on all sides of a conflict.


Dass Jennir finds himself siding with his former CIS enemies right after Order 66.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars for the Galactic Republic were tainted (to clarify, I don't mean any sort of metaphysical taint or corruption of spirit or anything like that). I don't see how it would be different for those fighting for the CIS. Both sides of the conflict were led by a Sith Lord, and both were doing questionable things. The entire war was a contrivance and a show put on by Darth Sidious, and the Jedi played right into it.

But then I think this was a problem for the Jedi Order before the Clone Wars began, because the Jedi Order was allied with the Galactic Republic in the same way that the Jedi are allied with the Force, and the Galactic Republic had become bloated, corrupt, and rotten from within, just as the Force had fallen out of balance (and the former may have contributed to the latter). The Jedi's ability to do good was consequently diminished -- just as their ability to use the Force was diminished -- because their hands were tied by bureaucratic red tape. See: the Naboo Crisis. There's no doubt the Jedi knew the situation needed resolving, but Qui-Gon couldn't even testify to the Galactic Senate, nor did the Jedi send some of their own to resolve the situation.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Since I don't read the Clone War books or watch the cartoon, I'll say this. I was hoping they would do something like that in Legacy of the Force. To have some Jedi, while not liking Jacen's actions, still remain loyal to the GA because they think the other side is a greater threat.

I also wanted some to agree in principal to the idea that the New Jedi Order do overstep their bounds at times. That they don't always work with the proper authorities when they are working and many of them think they are above the law.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Taral-DLOS wrote:
I was thinking earlier today and had a quick thought on the Force and Jedi:

Is it possible to have a regular, light-side Jedi, who respects his code of honour, but serves the CIS?

All of the CIS highers-up tend to be either motivated by personal gain (Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, etc.) are downright evil (Dooku, Ventress) or somewhere in the middle (Grievous; he's a villain who kills civilians and blows up hospitals, but he is a proper warrior, so I don't feel he meets the "evil" category).

But what if there were some middle-management type positions who a) fight in the Clone Wars on the side of the CIS, but b) limited their troops to military targets, and c) had minimal control from the heads of the CIS? Consider Mina and Lux Bonteri, who legitimately favour separatism, but are by no means evil. If Lux Bonteri had been taken to be trained as a Jedi in his infancy, but left the Order to support his mother, would he be a Dark Jedi? I say nay.

So I return to the original question: if a Jedi left the Order to fight alongside the CIS, would he be able to retain his code of ethics, or would be necessarily fall to the Dark Side?


On the whole, I agree with IR2. It's not so much that they'd be evil, but it's more a case of labelling. As you pointed out, there are good people, who are in this for good reasons, and Jedi certainly could do the same. However, I think the Republic (and Palpatine, I am sure, would push vehemently for such a thing) would probably label them Dark Jedi for a myriad of purposes. Political reasons being the most likely. But, some might actually believe them to be evil - though I feel that would be a naive point of view, and one that wouldn't cross a Jedi Master's mind. Anakin's, maybe. But just because you call someone something, it doesn't make it true.

On the whole, I think the Jedi would be able to stick to their code of ethics, but, also, I think not for long, if Dooku and Sidious have a mind to turn them. Either that or kill them.
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Life is like the Force - Luke Skywalker, Crucible. Damn straight I am.


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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Given how the Jedi are fighting for the aggressor of the Clone Wars, and for reasons of tradition over choice, there is nothing immoral about serving the CIS by comparison. They would be labeled traitors for sure, and I'm sure the Force is better off with the destroying of droids than the killing of clones, but there is nothing necessitating their decent into darkness, neither metaphysical nor moral, just from a simple switch of teams.

Well, except one thing. Due to the perspective SW takes, no character I'm aware of ever served the antagonists without also turning evil and/or darksided. Not cause they had to, but because the thematics demanded it. SW is a morality play that strictly limits its shades of gray.
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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I don't think that's true of the Star Wars universe intrinsically, but simply due to the focus of the story being told across the films. Perhaps some of the Expanded Universe has taken that as a cue for its stories, but I'd argue that other stories don't maintain that standard.

For instance, I'd definitely argue that the way Thrawn has been written recently (anything besides the Thrawn trilogy) doesn't depict him as evil, and that Pellaeon likewise has never been evil. Zahn has definitely created a lot of Imperial characters that fundamentally aren't greedy or that seek to impose themselves on others, as defines Palpatine or Vader, but are fundamentally loyal to what is viewed as the legitimate government and toward order. Soontir Fel and the Hand of Judgment are other examples.


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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:29 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Well, I was kinda taking for granted that someone serving in the military chain of command for a machine like the Empire (or its Remnant) would qualify. But that gets into the old problem of the morality of being a soldier. I assume there to have been a lack of sympathy for Ozzel among the ESB audience. That is all the measuring stick I really need.

But in comparison to a rogue Jedi, such soldiers have the advantage of no choice. While a rogue Jedi should theoretically have a choice about denying the dark side, their new masters or the cirumstances they are introduced to always drive them towards it anyway, or the same personality that caused them to defect just happens to be one that would be attracted to the dark. In other words, still no actual choice, but a lack thereof caused by plot convenience rather than the soldier's formal duty to perform evil.

Dass Jennir was brought up, and he is a perfect example. His fall was probably more intended to show how the Jedi Purge and war in general drove Jedi to places they were not supposed to go. But interestingly it coincides with him leaving the Republic and "joining" the CIS, even in a story where the CIS is slightly more protagonistic than the Republic/Empire! The precedent never fails AFAIK. It may be arguable for a soldier, but for Jedi and the dark side, it holds up frighteningly well.
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Last edited by DarthMRN on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:26 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Call me a Sith, but I've always liked the Force Potentium. I wish the Force was less dualistic, more ambiguous. There are a lot of ways to view the Force. It's disappointing that a lot of Force sects introduced in the Bantam Era aren't seen in stories. By calling the Jedi view the "correct" one, I think we're losing some of that mystery. What do you think?
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Last edited by Dancelittleewok on Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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There could be "heretic" Force sects even if the dualistic Jedi/Sith view is correct. I also wish we would see more Force users besides the usual two.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I think the deal with the whole "correct" thing, is Jedi are unlikely to ever say the other groups are correct. The key would be a new novel or story that stars a character of a different sect who could then portray the acceptability of their own view, and give readers the opportunity to see that other sects could be "correct."
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 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:39 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Mortis is the main reason that my fandom is on life support. Sure there were other annoyances, but I could live with them. Mortis pushed me over the edge.
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Reepicheep wrote:
Mortis is the main reason that my fandom is on life support. Sure there were other annoyances, but I could live with them. Mortis pushed me over the edge.


Considering how much it's been talked about, Mortis is the episode I'm looking forward to the most. I, generally, like my Star Wars to be thought-provoking. From what I've heard, Mortis is perfect for me.

Has anyone's opinion about Mortis changed after reading Apocalypse?
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Last edited by Dancelittleewok on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total


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