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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I'm quite satisfied that there's no conflict between Ben and Luke. I just don't see it as necessary to FOTJ, and would actually think it unnecessarily complicating an already complicated story.
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:
You think Ben and Luke's relationship is forced? How? Confused


What? No, I don't think that. Indeed, I quite like their set up. All the joking reminds me of my dad and I.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were talking to me. Hey, just because I didn't remember saying it, doesn't mean I didn't!

Though my comment still stands. Ben and Luke's relationship does mirror the one I have with my dad - though I don't think our jokes are lame, and I only think some of the Ben-Luke jokes are lame in Denning and Golden books.

But I tend to agree with the others. I remember the two having conflict in the last series, and trilogy. I think Ben's matured to a level that makes such conflict less plausible. A little amount of griping I understand, but beyond that I feel it'd be out of place.

Oh, and I thought it quite funny how JM called Vestara 'it' Laughing .
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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I would have like to see a tad more conflict between the two. Simply because as was stated in the first book, no teenager should be around their father for that long. Granted they've butted heads over the girl a bit, but I still would like to see a greater disagreement on some of the choices they've had to make.


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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Werehunter wrote:
I would have like to see a tad more conflict between the two. Simply because as was stated in the first book, no teenager should be around their father for that long. Granted they've butted heads over the girl a bit, but I still would like to see a greater disagreement on some of the choices they've had to make.


Agreed. Teenage kids don't always get along with their parents. That sort of a relationship was done pretty well between Lee and William Adama in BSG. And the father-son bond is much more effective if you see it develop rather than it existing already. I don't think the bond between Lee Adama and William Adama in BSG in the later seasons would have been nearly as good if the show just started off at that point, rather than starting them off somewhat standoffish with each other and then coming to respect each other through adversity they go through together.

And I think that's one of the reasons why the Han-Leia romance is so effective in The Empire Strikes Back; it develops out of the conflict between the two characters. It also makes their interactions when they're on the ship, otherwise not doing anything of interest, more interesting. Moreso IMO than the interactions between Ben and Luke.

Having thought about it, I'm not quite sure how making interactions between Luke and Ben as interesting as those between Han and Leia in Episode V, so if I were the writer, I don't think I would set it up in that way where it's just the two of them alone for long periods of time, especially since they don't play off of one another as foils. Perhaps that's part of the reason why they brought Vestara in, but they did it halfway into the series which is too late IMO.


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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Crash Override wrote:

Agreed. Teenage kids don't always get along with their parents.

Don't always. That's the trick. Wink
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Reepicheep wrote:
Crash Override wrote:

Agreed. Teenage kids don't always get along with their parents.

Don't always. That's the trick. Wink


I find it doubtful there's a teenager that's always agreed with his or her parents 100% of the time. My usage was that any particular teenage kid won't always get along with his or her parent(s) 100% of the time.

I think it would be more unnatural for a teenager to always agree with his or her parents than for the occasional -- or frequent -- disagreement.


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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'm pretty sure Luke and Ben disagree about things although I can't think of examples (aside from the obvious). I know for a fact that some teenage kids can get along well with their parents without always being in each other's hair. Besides, they're Jedi, pointless disputes are so below them! Wink
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 PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Reepicheep wrote:
Besides, they're Jedi, pointless disputes are so below them! Wink


And yet, ironically, not below the Jedi council.

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 PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:45 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Well, that's a whole other discussion. But, yes, good point. Wink
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 PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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I, too, see a natural develope in Luke-Ben's relationship since Mara's death. They began to make jokes quite soon after that -I still remember that one about Ben not wanting to end like Fett on Endor- and Ben isn't a "common" teenage. He lost his mother in a very violent way when he was too young and was forced to grow up really fast. We like it or not, from a psychologic point of view, Ben is now over 20.


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 PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Crash Override wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Crash Override wrote:

Agreed. Teenage kids don't always get along with their parents.

Don't always. That's the trick. Wink


I find it doubtful there's a teenager that's always agreed with his or her parents 100% of the time. My usage was that any particular teenage kid won't always get along with his or her parent(s) 100% of the time.

I think it would be more unnatural for a teenager to always agree with his or her parents than for the occasional -- or frequent -- disagreement.


Are we talking during FotJ, or LotF? for FotJ I think LotF was used to show Ben his Father wasn't a complete idiot, now Ben trusts his Father's perspective and insight.
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 PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Man, I really didn't want this to turn into a multiple page debate, and I think I've let myself get off focus from my original point. I don't find Ben to be an engaging character because he doesn't do anything to distinguish himself as one. Even when he's conflicting with Luke in LOTF, he's doing so following Jacen, rather than anything of his own accord. He's always been a follower, either of Jacen or Luke. And Ben has never had a foil, that is, "a character who contrasts with another character (usually the protagonist) in order to highlight various features of that other character's personality, throwing these characteristics into sharper focus."

Putting Ben with Luke is pretty much pointless from a character development or even storytelling standpoint, in this regard. Whereas with Luke and Han, or Anakin and Obi-Wan, or Anakin (or Ganner) and Jacen, they all have differing personalities and play off of one another and highlight each other's personalities through their distinctions, having Ben alone with Luke on the Jade Shadow for half the series doesn't do this for Ben at all. Hence why I said they should have some sort of fundamental conflict in personality. Maybe everyone else is right, and that wouldn't work. But if that's the case, then it was a mistake to put Luke and Ben in that situation because it's really boring (IMO) and does nothing to develop Ben as a character.

It could be argued that Vestara has been introduced as Ben's foil. But I don't think that this has been done very effectively because she didn't interact with Ben socially until book 4 of the series and didn't truly become part of the group until the end of that book, and even so, I don't think that a villainous character necessarily makes for an effective foil because moreso than contrasting the differences in the characters' personalities and highlighting the unique aspects of Ben, it serves to highlight Ben as a heroic character in contrast with Vestara as a villainous character. We already knew Ben was a heroic character, and it still doesn't do much to distinguish him from Luke. Ben and Vestara's differences aren't any different than Luke and Vestara's differences in that regard, so having Luke with Ben also compromises Vestara's impact as a foil. I'll admit it makes Luke more of a foil for Ben, however, by virtue of Luke's treatment of Vestara compared to Ben's, but by making Vestara a romantic interest of Ben -- which she obviously isn't for Luke -- that is mitigated because it's not so much a difference between Ben and Luke's personalities as it is a difference in their feelings toward the character.

So my main point is that Ben isn't an engaging character, and the above is why I think that, and I got off-focus with my belief that putting Luke and Ben together on the Jade Shadow alone for half the series was a bad move, not only because it does nothing to make Ben engaging as a character, but also because their father-son relationship didn't need development, since as most everyone has been arguing with me, they're apparently just fine and dandy in that regard. And personally, I prefer my stories to have conflict in them, rather than reading about perfect relationships without speed bumps or issues. By putting Luke and Ben alone on the Jade Shadow, it brings that father-son relationship into sharp focus, and if there's no story there, it's a wasted opportunity and a bad decision.


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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:03 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Nedara wrote:
I, too, see a natural develope in Luke-Ben's relationship since Mara's death. They began to make jokes quite soon after that -I still remember that one about Ben not wanting to end like Fett on Endor- and Ben isn't a "common" teenage. He lost his mother in a very violent way when he was too young and was forced to grow up really fast. We like it or not, from a psychologic point of view, Ben is now over 20.


Correction: Ben was born in 26ABY, and Ascension takes place in 44ABY. Though, for some reason, I recall, Ascension was calling Ben a 16 year old.
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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:09 am Reply with quote  
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  Nedara
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I said "a psychologic point of view". I didn't mean his physical age.


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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Ah.
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