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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Reepicheep wrote:
You can't get the originals on DVD can you?


You can get the original theatrical releases on DVD, yes. They came out a few years ago...:

A New Hope - Original Theatrical Version

It's actually two versions in one. The newest version prior to Blu-Ray, and the original all in the same package.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Cool. Thanks Mara.

Cerrinea wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
^ But it's amazing the emotion it did reveal. Instead of just having Vader saying how he's feeling or even letting his expressions show it, they made it clear without. It wasn't just Vader looking back and forth, the music also and the way Vader's head tilted added to the emotion of the scene. The face we've all come to dread now, somehow, looks tragic. I was learning about this in my Media Arts class last year. My textbook described how George Lucas conveyed the emotions of Darth Vader, C-3P0 and R2-D2 without expressions and (much of the time) dialogue as a great achievement. Now he's throwing it all away... I just don't get it. Confused

@Caedus: What year are they from.


I don't see any of that in that particular scene. To me he looks like he's trying to decide whether to wear the black socks or...the black socks.

However, the scene where Luke and Vader are talking after Luke turns himself in, I find very poignant. When Luke says to him, "Then my father is truly dead." and leaves Vader, Vader leans against the rail, and I can feel the beginning of the conflict in him and probably emotions he hasn't allowed himself to feel in a very long time.

I think the conflict is resolved when Vader finally realizes as Luke's dying that Luke will never turn and Vader then becomes Anakin again, saves his son and fulfills the prophecy. I buy it, but I just don't see the emotion in Vader in that scene. It's not there in the body language like it is in the my father is dead scene.

I think I'll agree that that scene was better but this edit still touches a nerve. They should make R2-D2 talk in the next edition! Rolling Eyes
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Did anyone listen to the radio drama version of the scene I linked to on youtube?

I'm kind of curious what people think of that.

Also, I just remembered that an earlier draft which had Endor as the moon of Coruscant (which doesn't make sense if there's Ewoks on it, IMO, when you think about it) had the scenes with Luke, Palpatine, and Vader deep in Coruscant in a room with lava. And Vader tackles Palpatine and they both go into the lava.

I guess that shows the contrast of thinking between Lucas now, and Lucas and Kasdan co-writing then. Vader never says anything nor does he have a scene with Luke, he dies with Palpatine and it's left to the audience to ponder.

Since Lucas made the Force ghost thing a technique that Qui-Gon learned (but not to the extent to become an incorporeal figure) and which Yoda and Obi-Wan mastered, it does seem like an illogical "happy ending" that Anakin appears as a Force ghost at all.


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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Teck
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Always wondered why with all those gadgets in R2-D2 the designers couldn't find room for a proper vocabulater. Then again if everything was logical, Vader would have just stabbed the Emperor in the back instead of getting himself electrocuted carrying him across the room. And before someone points out that Vader's lightsaber fell down the pit I would like to point out that he could have used Luke's, which was laying conveniently on the deck.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Teck wrote:
Always wondered why with all those gadgets in R2-D2 the designers couldn't find room for a proper vocabulater. Then again if everything was logical, Vader would have just stabbed the Emperor in the back instead of getting himself electrocuted carrying him across the room. And before someone points out that Vader's lightsaber fell down the pit I would like to point out that he could have used Luke's, which was laying conveniently on the deck.


I think that's something that's reasonable not to expect, either retrieving the lightsaber or using the Force to do so might have clued in Palpatine and nullified the element of surprise, and even if we conclude it's not definite that it would, I think it's reasonable that Anakin wouldn't consider that option.

From a storytelling standpoint, Anakin shouldn't survive his redemption anyway, and that his final gesture is a sacrificial one is confirmation that it was done as Anakin Skywalker, and not Darth Vader. It's a selfless betrayal -- equal parts Jedi and Sith! I also think it's to some extent a return of Darth Vader to the child he was on Tatooine, since that was the only time we saw him do something selfless with the podrace, and from Episode II onward he was mostly acting on his own benefit.

Honestly, the "noooo" is kind of counter-productive IMO insofar as that it's what he did in Revenge of the Sith when saving Palpatine. He's yelling it out of self-interest in that case, not because of genuine concern for Palpatine. To have him yell it out to save Luke is a superficial call back. At best you could argue that he yelled it out in ROTS out of concern for Padme, but he's still acting in an immoral way for the benefit of himself, and to have him yell it out to save Luke almost is suggestive that there wasn't really character growth. Yes, he's reverted back to Anakin Skywalker, but he's still the flawed Anakin Skywalker of the prequels, not an enlightened Anakin that's finally realized his folly, and is behaving selflessly.

I suppose the fact that he's saving Luke doesn't fully allow for that to be realized, but the "nooo" just reminds you of the fact rather than attempting to mitigate the circumstances. I guess since it's a sacrificial act that helps, but would Anakin have died for Padme in Revenge of the Sith?


Last edited by Crash Override on Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Teck
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Ya, I'm not saying that he should have done that, I'm just pointing out that better storytelling trumps logical action.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think the other issue with Star Wars is there's a contradictory premise to the films; Lucas clearly treats them as being more simplistic and not necessarily the deepest movies, and I guess you could say they've been that way since the start with with character archetypes and so forth.

But when he wrote Episode I, he decided to make the six films the saga of Anakin/Vader, rather than making Obi-Wan the star of the prequels and Luke the star of the OT. So he's making the saga a character study of Anakin. But he seems to sabotage that by writing these important character scenes to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I guess that doesn't necessarily make it a bad character study, just not a particularly deep one.


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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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Dancelittleewok wrote:
Speaking of Han, Invasion writer Tom Taylor posted this on his Facebook page:

Quote:
Han still shoots first in the new Star Wars Blu-Ray but, afterward, Han now cradles Greedo lovingly and sings him a soft Rodian lullaby as a single CGI tear falls from his face and lands with a barely audible splash on the Cantina floor. It's beautiful.


And then followed up with:

Quote:
And the sound that CGI tear makes-- as it rolls down Solo's face, falls from his stubbled chin, and hangs above Greedo's body for just one single, perfect moment in the air, reflecting Tatooine's harsh desert light across a room of scum and villainy, softening the hardest of hearts and minds--can you hear the sound of that tear? It's almost as if... yes.... a TEAR is crying.
The CGI tear is crying for Greedo.


This just made me laugh really hard.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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This just in... http://i.imgur.com/jWR0w.jpg Shaw removed from RotJ again.

Or is he?
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
This just in... http://i.imgur.com/jWR0w.jpg Shaw removed from RotJ again.

Or is he?


O_o
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:25 am Reply with quote  
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  ADG12311990
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
This just in... http://i.imgur.com/jWR0w.jpg Shaw removed from RotJ again.

Or is he?




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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Reepicheep wrote:
^ But it's amazing the emotion it did reveal. Instead of just having Vader saying how he's feeling or even letting his expressions show it, they made it clear without. It wasn't just Vader looking back and forth, the music also and the way Vader's head tilted added to the emotion of the scene. The face we've all come to dread now, somehow, looks tragic. I was learning about this in my Media Arts class last year. My textbook described how George Lucas conveyed the emotions of Darth Vader, C-3P0 and R2-D2 without expressions and (much of the time) dialogue as a great achievement. Now he's throwing it all away... I just don't get it. Confused

@Caedus: What year are they from.


Agreed, Reep. Vader says more by saying little.
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:10 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
This just in... http://i.imgur.com/jWR0w.jpg Shaw removed from RotJ again.

Or is he?


I think if he didn't add the hair that people would have believed it.


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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Crash: I listened to the audio, but, honestly, I didn't think it was any better. All of it seemed wrong. The elongated 'my son!' and 'but not Anakin Skywalker...!' seemed out of place. Like it's neither Vader nor Anakin speaking. That, along with Palpatine's 'You. Will. Die. Die!' were too theatrical for my liking. As if it were a badly acted Shakespeare play.

Crash Override wrote:
I think that's something that's reasonable not to expect, either retrieving the lightsaber or using the Force to do so might have clued in Palpatine and nullified the element of surprise, and even if we conclude it's not definite that it would, I think it's reasonable that Anakin wouldn't consider that option.

From a storytelling standpoint, Anakin shouldn't survive his redemption anyway, and that his final gesture is a sacrificial one is confirmation that it was done as Anakin Skywalker, and not Darth Vader. It's a selfless betrayal -- equal parts Jedi and Sith! I also think it's to some extent a return of Darth Vader to the child he was on Tatooine, since that was the only time we saw him do something selfless with the podrace, and from Episode II onward he was mostly acting on his own benefit.

Honestly, the "noooo" is kind of counter-productive IMO insofar as that it's what he did in Revenge of the Sith when saving Palpatine. He's yelling it out of self-interest in that case, not because of genuine concern for Palpatine. To have him yell it out to save Luke is a superficial call back. At best you could argue that he yelled it out in ROTS out of concern for Padme, but he's still acting in an immoral way for the benefit of himself, and to have him yell it out to save Luke almost is suggestive that there wasn't really character growth. Yes, he's reverted back to Anakin Skywalker, but he's still the flawed Anakin Skywalker of the prequels, not an enlightened Anakin that's finally realized his folly, and is behaving selflessly.

I suppose the fact that he's saving Luke doesn't fully allow for that to be realized, but the "nooo" just reminds you of the fact rather than attempting to mitigate the circumstances. I guess since it's a sacrificial act that helps, but would Anakin have died for Padme in Revenge of the Sith?


That's sort of what my problem is, but I don't see it quite the way you're saying. Lucas has a habit of repeating dialogue. I've heard some fans back on the old TOS forums saying that it's because he can't be bothered to think up new dialogue, but I think of it as him showing how the same words can have different inflections, different meanings, when in different circumstances. This, I believe, is the case here. He's using the same dialogue, but not the same reasoning as to why he's saying it.

Having said that, however, I don't like the version we've seen so far. I'll wait until the Blu-Rays come out and the actual clip (because I'm pretty sure this is not the final cut) is put on youtube to see whether or not it's any good and whether or not I'll like it. However, again, I'm not a fan of it, as it is, for much the same reasoning you give: the superficial link. But the link I draw is not with the Anakin-Palpatine 'No' in ROTS, but the Padme one. Again, that's just on a superficial level - I feel they're both badly performed.
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:33 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Crash: I listened to the audio, but, honestly, I didn't think it was any better. All of it seemed wrong. The elongated 'my son!' and 'but not Anakin Skywalker...!' seemed out of place. Like it's neither Vader nor Anakin speaking. That, along with Palpatine's 'You. Will. Die. Die!' were too theatrical for my liking. As if it were a badly acted Shakespeare play.


I attribute that to being a radio drama. The actors have to describe the action as well, which can be clunky. I liked:

Palpatine: Now, young Skywalker, you will die! Die!

Luke: NOOO!!

Palpatine: YESSS!


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