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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Master Skid
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Cerrinea wrote:
Yeah, except George Lucas came out and absolutely clarified that Anakin is the Chosen One in a documentary. Also anything George says is G canon. It does not have to happen IC. If George says it, it's so.


Didn't know that but I do agree with you 100% what George says goes.
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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What happens if George says that Darth Vader isn't really Luke's father?

"Luke I am your father!"

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

"Dude, calm down. I was just messing with you."
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Reep, that would be priceless. I would die laughing.
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  grayJeedai08
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The tragedy of Anakin/Vader. 'Nough said.


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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Cerrinea wrote:
Yeah, except George Lucas came out and absolutely clarified that Anakin is the Chosen One in a documentary. Also anything George says is G canon. It does not have to happen IC. If George says it, it's so.
Not so. G-canon is a Holocron Database construct. And Leland has specifically said that very few statements by GL from interviews and commentaries and the like are included in the Holocron. It deals with what he specifically wants them to include.

So unless he has sent them a note to keep Ani as the Chosen One, and the Chosen One being defined as A, B and C, the EU is free to play around as much as it likes with the topic.

This is mostly academic, though. It is extremely unlikely that something like this would violate the spirit of the movies. I'm mostly just here to undermine the conviction that anything GL says falls within the Holocron system as any sort of canon.
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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DarthMRN wrote:
Cerrinea wrote:
Yeah, except George Lucas came out and absolutely clarified that Anakin is the Chosen One in a documentary. Also anything George says is G canon. It does not have to happen IC. If George says it, it's so.
Not so. G-canon is a Holocron Database construct. And Leland has specifically said that very few statements by GL from interviews and commentaries and the like are included in the Holocron. It deals with what he specifically wants them to include.

So unless he has sent them a note to keep Ani as the Chosen One, and the Chosen One being defined as A, B and C, the EU is free to play around as much as it likes with the topic.

This is mostly academic, though. It is extremely unlikely that something like this would violate the spirit of the movies. I'm mostly just here to undermine the conviction that anything GL says falls within the Holocron system as any sort of canon.


From Wikipedia

"G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays."
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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And you're going to trust the encyclopedia that anyone can edit? Just kidding. Wink
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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:15 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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You do realize that even though anyone can edit it the sources have to be cited with the article.

Also, any time a change is made on a wiki (modified article or new entry), the staff gets an update notifying them of the change.
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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I'm one of the people that when I cared to, was anal enough to go through the articles and tag [citation needed] on everything that wasn't sourced. I actually eliminated a few fanon things that were introduced into wookieepedia based upon erroneous assumptions.


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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:39 am Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Cerrinea wrote:
"G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays."
I'm afraid wiki is off base in this case. G is the movies, notes from GL, and a select few public statements, that's it. No radio dramas, no scripts, no novelizatons. As it says, "unofficial".

By Leland:

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?
The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would override the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon.


what standing in canon statements by George Lucas have. I always thought that they constituted G-canon, but I just wanted to make sure.
In the Holocron, the different levels of continuity are only given for an entry in its entirety; not by individual pieces of information. Therefore, an entry would not say that this part of the entry is G-canon and the other is C-canon, though this might be inferred from the source. As always, contradictions are dealt with case-by-case. Obviously, things that come from the films and from George usually take a higher priority than other sources. But when taking George's statements into account for the Holocron's continuity notes, I have to consider a) when the statement was made (something he said from the 70's may no longer pertain to his current vision of +Star Wars+), b) the source of the statement (a non-LFL source could be a misquote), and c) the context of the statement (was George making a joke or off-the cuff remark? Was it something said to someone behind-the-scenes to elicit a certain performance, not necessarily part of continuity?) There are relatively few notes from George in the Holocron that are derived from public statements; most of the notes from him are from things that George gives to Licensing directly.

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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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There's definitely something very "off base" here, but it's not necessarily the wiki.

Rostoni, Gamer 6, Oct/Nov 2001 wrote:
Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of, Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays.

Rostoni, May 30, 2003 wrote:
There is a hierarchy -- the movies, novelizations, radio dramas come first. Then everything else. If something in a novelization contradicts the movies, then we defer to the movies.


And now we have the famous quote from Leland:

Leland wrote:
Obviously, things that come from the films and from George usually take a higher priority than other sources.


Which, if taken literally, says that sometimes "other sources" trump the films, a concept which flies in the face of the hierarchy alluded to by Rostoni, which has always been an understood fact of SW.

Tellingly, this statement by Leland is immediately followed by various feeble rationalizations of how a statement from Lucas' own mouth could be discarded ( including assumptions of misquoting, a laughable desperation ploy which obviously has no ultimate bearing whatsoever on commentaries or the original text of interviews; the logically questionable concept that early Lucas statements must have an expiration date based solely on speculative revisionist fantasies; and an absurdly blatant dismissal of Lucas' on-set direction to Ian McDiarmid which ignorantly overlooks the fact that the same emphasis appears in "all-important" C-canon ), but nothing about how or why the films themselves could be similarly ignored. In other forums which have since been killed off, Leland was asked to provide examples of this seemingly amazing result - and failed miserably, mostly changing the subject and producing only the non-example of Boba Fett, whose death was never confirmed in the films and whose possible survival is even now supported by statements from Lucas.
( Also note that 98% of the material in the commentaries fails to fit any of Leland's (a)-(b)-(c) categories. )

So, the inevitable result remains: Leland, as in all matters Dagobah, can safely be ignored.


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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:39 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I think ignoring Leeland is overstating the issue. Leeland is a valuable resource and all of the authors go to him for continuity reference. The authors don't go to George for that kind of info.

But that's as far as I really want to dive into this matter. As far as canon goes, it's really a fluctuating thing and everyone does the best they can and the end result is pretty good considering the massive undertaking and all the variables.
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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
As far as canon goes, it's really a fluctuating thing and everyone does the best they can and the end result is pretty good considering the massive undertaking and all the variables.


Totally agreed. And that's why it stings me so much that GL ignores continuity so often....
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Leland wrote:
When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon.


Regarding material coming from Lucas, it's interesting that the above quote in isolation says the same thing as the wikipedia entry. "Anything in the films and from George Lucas ( including internal notes )" does not mean the same thing as "Anything in the films, together with any internal notes, and that's it".

Do any of Leland's rationalizations for throwing out Lucas statements apply to Lucas' statement that Anakin is the Chosen One?

Was it something he said in the 70's that no longer pertains to his current vision of Star Wars? No. 2005 was not in the 70's.

Was he misquoted? No. Anyone can watch the featurette and hear him say it for themselves.

Was he making a joke or "off-the-cuff remark"? No. What's the punchline?

Was it said to someone behind the scenes to elicit a certain performance? No.

There is no basis whatsoever to discard this statement ( which was consistent with the strong implication of the films anyway ).


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Teck
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Cerrinea wrote:

any statements by George Lucas himself.

Well I saw a picture of George wearing a "Han shot first tee shirt." Dose that make it G-canon.
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