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Thinking Deep...what makes a Jedi or Sith?
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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So after reading I, Jedi I got to thinking again about Jedi vs. Sith and the question of using the dark side. Basically what has caught my interest is the bit in the book about Nejaa Halcyon's death (pages 334-339). Specifically he gets mortally wounded battling Dark Jedi but before being killed he uses the Force to basically crush he opponent's body and throw him into a structure. According to the book Nejaa's motives were to kill the Dark Jedi who otherwise would kill Nejaa's friends.

Now in KOTOR II I believe there is a Dark Side power Force Crush that seems to work very similar to what is described in the book. Given the book makes no mention of Nejaa's use of this (or similar) Force power as turning him to the Dark Side what does that mean? Could the fact that he dies right after indicate there was too little time for him to be turned or could it indicate that in certain dire situations using a power otherwise associated with the Dark Side to save friends acceptable? Another possibility is if a Dark Side power is used but the act costs your life and the goal was to protect someone from harm (a selfless Light Side act) does the Light Sided End negate the Dark Sided Means?
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Hmmm...that is a most interesting question. I shall ponder it. *ponders*
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ends don't justify means
 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:06 am Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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I think about the phrase "the ends do not justify the means". He may still have thought like a Jedi and wanted to save/protect people like a Jedi from these Sith, but he may have given into the dark temptations anyway. I haven't read that book in such a long time, but if he reflected on his actions and concluded it was along the dark path, then I would say he's a stronger Jedi; however, if he gave into the anger, even to protect his friends, he may have started down the dark path but unable to "make" anything of it.

Also, recall The Dark Nest trilogy: Luke was battling Welk and at one time decided to use the Force to choke him. This power is usually fueled by anger and is considered dark. Although Luke was doing choke to protect the galaxy from being invaded by the Killiks, he realized choke wasn't the way to do it and could solve it by other means. Sometimes, intense pressure can cause beings to overlook other options.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I still think it's a two fold gesture. First off it's how you use the Force. Killing innocents will definitely set you down the dark path. However, the second part is in 'how' you used the Force. By that, I mean how you channel the Force to you and through you. If you channel anger, hatred, and rage in order to draw upon the Force, these things have an adverse affect on you and can corrupt you. Essentially they 'open' you to the 'dark side.' It doesn't condemn you to it, but it makes you vulnerable to it and if you are already on the dark path, it makes it that much worse.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
It doesn't condemn you to it, but it makes you vulnerable to it and if you are already on the dark path, it makes it that much worse.


In much fewer words, I was trying to say something along those lines as well Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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So then it sounds like he momentarily started to go down the path of the Dark Side in using Force Crush. I'll guess he wasn't able to "make" anything of it though since he dies right after killing the Dark Jedi. Ok that makes sense to me.

One final thing with regards to how he drew upon the Force. According to the book it seems like such powers are ordinarily outside of the Halcyon line of Jedi's abilities (since even basic telekinesis is all but impossible for them ordinarily). The strength of the Halcyon's is their ability to absorb energy and then channel what is absorbed to "power" abilities (such as telekinesis) that are ordinarily outside of their skills.

In Nejaa's case he absorbs the energy from the Dark Jedi's lightsaber when he is stabbed by it and takes that energy and uses it to "power" Force Crush. So since anger, hatred etc. weren't technically being tapped to "fuel" Force Crush (at least in the direct sense most often associated with the Dark Side) does that change anything? For example in Episode II when Yoda battles Dooku he absorbs some of the Force Lightning and at one point either reflects it back at Dooku or absorbs it and at the same time uses the energy to cast Force Lightning of his own (if you watch the graphics are the same for when he absorbs and then shoots the Force Lightning at Dooku and when he just absorbs the energy).

I guess based on what has been said even if a Dark Sided Force power is only fueled indirectly by anger, hatred etc it still will lead a person down the path of the Dark Side if not careful. Since reading the book it just seems like it might be possible to use a Dark Side like power against a hostile foe if it is being fueled by excess energy gained from absorption without turning to the Dark Side.
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 PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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Hmmmm, interesting. I would still think it takes some dark thoughts to use it as Force crush but I'd have to really check it out. I don't think I'm that committed though Smile
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:28 am Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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Well usually wat differs them is that while they both might want peace...they hav different ways---Sith like to go the root of the problem---While the Jedi just do it on a wait and see basis----
To get a job done-Some amount of ruthlessness is okay I guess...but when one makes ruthlessness the way to acheave everything(the root problem)thats when you go Sith.
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A Sith imposes his view on others--The Jedi dont do it to the extent that the Sith plan to do...
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Jedi want to create peace through universal love (this is love without the physical element, one of emotional caring for all life so that you would not harm it).
Sith want to create peace by destroying all sentient creatures. They usually start with those who voice their opposition to said peace...

...either way works. Very Happy
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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Not all Jedi wait and see. In the beginning of Legacy of the Force, Luke wanted to find out who was manipulating everyone to cause this war and Jacen wanted to go right out there and stop the war. Both were right, but they should have worked better together. The rest is history Smile
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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BUt Jedis would never go to look for ever-lasting peace the way Sith do---they plan to tackle things as they come---While The Sith see the galaxy as hopeless---and want to put an end to the chaos---if that means silencing millions so the billions can work---thats the Sith balance
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Point to note=Every Sith emerges when Attachments grow 'too strong'...Anakin-Padme
Jacen-Allana....both Anakin and Jacen wanted peace in the galaxy becuz of them---thats wat drove them-The Attachments that grow maddening---lets face it if Ben was to go Dark wud Mara hav hunted him down???The answer is MAra wud join Ben I think....
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So Attachments---the pure mad ones play a major part in Someone going Sith
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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:05 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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So what was Palpatine's attachment? Can you say he was attached to power? Or life? He certainly didn't seemed to be attached to a person other than himself, and even then he transferred his spirit into another body, thus he didn't have any physical attachments whatsoever.
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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  FatalFist
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I'd say his Attachment might've been sth we might never hav know abt---After all Darth Vader was supposed to be that innocent kid who drives that pod-racer-
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Second of All---He might hav grown attached to Life itself---He wanted to live on forever I think...And just think when one guy who wants to be sure that he shud live forever...A guy like Palpatine would be sooo sure of himself he wudnt want any variables thus forcing the Results he wants in the Universe to come to pass the way he saw fit---
____-
Attachments dont hav to be fr someone else(could be fr his life and power)---I dont agree with the stuff that Palpatine chose evil knowingly...The 'Evil' guy never thinks of himself as 'Evil'---he thinks hes been forced by destiny or has got a reaaally long and tedious defense fr his actions=p
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 PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Well of course they don't think of themselves as evil. To them there is no such thing. They're simply doing what they so wish, and only know that it is evil in other's eyes, but not their own. It's only at the beginning of the fall do they think they're 'evil'. But after justifying it for long enough, they overcome that guilt and have rationalized enough that now they no longer see it as such.

And Palpatine wanted to live forever, sure. Though he didn't seem bothered by the fact that Vader would one day try to destroy him. That never seems to bother any of the Sith. *shrugs* Maybe it's because Palpatine didn't think Vader could do it. As for power, he certainly seemed to relish that as well. I mean think about it, he held the whole Empire together by himself. Without him, the military began to completely fall apart. So I would say that his two greatest loves were himself and power.
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 PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Aush
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I would agree about Palpatine loving nothing more than himself and power. I don't know how you can argue the Jedi don't go looking for "ever lasting peace," if they believe such a thing is possible. Yes, when a fire comes up, they want to deal with it to get things back to normal (maybe the Jedi do crave power through control as Palpatine said?). Sith are out for selfish ends and Jedi are out for majorities ends; neither may believe in ever lasting peace.
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"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."


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