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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Crash Override wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
After the short story I actually really want a Tenebrous novel now. Either that or I'd honestly like at Exar Kun novel. One that kind of cleans up the mess that the Tales of the Jedi comics made.


What mess?

Given that they were the first stories to be written in that era, I don't really understand how they're capable of making a mess?


I honestly just thought they were sloppily written. The story wasn't a mess, the presentation was poor. An Exar Kun novel could clean it up. I know a lot of people loved them and I love the story but it was just poorly executed to me.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:39 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Yeah, I could see that. I mean the comics were alright, but they are dated. Personally I like what Karpyshyn was able to do turning the Bane comics into a book. I'm all for Exar Kun getting book treatment.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:23 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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So it's a matter of medium. Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi are comic miniseries and consequently can't delve into the subject with the same depth as a novel with regards to exploring a character's thoughts, which has led to people clamoring for a Stover penned novelization of Dark Empire (which I think would be good, but Stover isn't interested).

Personally, I find SW to be a primarily audiovisual experience... novels are really the bottom rung in terms of my enjoyment of Star Wars as far as the medium goes, and in order for a SW novel to be great it has to really be an outstanding novel. I just don't think that the setting is conducive to the medium so much because ILM's visual effects, Ralph McQuarrie and other's art design, and Ben Burt's sound effects are what really define it. That's why I really like the video games and audio dramas (which Tales of the Jedi has, so you might be interested in checking that out).

Also, a continuity note, but I find it interesting that there's an interest for the sort of treatment that Karpyshyn did for Jedi vs Sith to be done for Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi, when these inevitably depict the events in ways that are incompatible, such as Karpyshyn did with PoD (which causes Wookieepedia fits, since everything has to fit in a rigid, absolute timeline there), e.g. Pernicar dying two different ways.

But I have no doubt that my perspective is skewed by the fact that Dark Empire, Tales of the Jedi, and the Thrawn trilogy were what I grew up with for Star Wars, and are as Star Wars to me as the original trilogy is, because they were it back then.

Edit: toned down negativeness!


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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I've never read the whole Dark Empire series so I really can't comment on that. But I did read Jedi vs Sith before I read the Bane Trilogy. I'm also not annal about continuity, so if a book changes existing continuity, it doesn't turn me off. I know it's not official, but I'm perfectly fine with book canon trumping comic canon. Each medium is a different form of story telling, and when trying to contain a story withing a single issue of a comic, when trying to make every issue in a comic series entertaining, you have to change the way you tell a story.

For me, I like books better than comics simply because as a reader I get a deeper bond with the characters.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I've never read the whole Dark Empire series so I really can't comment on that. But I did read Jedi vs Sith before I read the Bane Trilogy. I'm also not annal about continuity, so if a book changes existing continuity, it doesn't turn me off. I know it's not official, but I'm perfectly fine with book canon trumping comic canon. Each medium is a different form of story telling, and when trying to contain a story withing a single issue of a comic, when trying to make every issue in a comic series entertaining, you have to change the way you tell a story.

For me, I like books better than comics simply because as a reader I get a deeper bond with the characters.


That's the issue that people have with the comic miniseries that depict big events. Most people aren't fans of the artwork in Dark Empire or Jedi vs Sith, either because of the watercolors in the former or the Satyr aliens and Spanish galleon spaceships in the latter (Karpyshyn himself isn't a fan of Farfalla having goat legs and made it a point not to mention them, so as far as a reader of PoD or RoT knows, Farfalla is human).

As for novels having more depth to characterization, I agree, but as it applies to Star Wars, I think it's mostly wasted which is why I rarely view it as a positive. There's very little consistent characterization through Star Wars, and the books I am a fan of at least have a semblance of character arc across them. The New Jedi Order is my favorite book series in Star Wars because they plotted out the character development for Anakin, Luke, Han, Jacen, Jaina, Mara, and Leia across the course of the series and it's fairly consistent, with perhaps some minor issues. I think Shadows of the Empire, Truce at Bakura, Shadows of Mindor, The Courtship of Princess Leia, and Tatooine Ghost are pretty consistent with character arcs for Luke and Leia (although I suppose I'm being somewhat generous for COPL -- though it does have Leia's Force heritage come into play with the Witches and I think Wolverton took his cues from Dark Empire for Luke), because they had the milestones of The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, and Dark Empire to guide them in their characterizations of those two characters and it happens to gel fairly nicely despite there not being an organized effort.

I think that's because Dark Empire was a fairly big deal and essentially one equivalent to a sequel trilogy (with the Thrawn trilogy being another, but it didn't really do anything in terms of character arcs or development apart from Karrde and Mara). Once that milestone was passed though the characterization got really messy in the timeline until Zahn sort of righted it with Hand of Thrawn, from which New Jedi Order took its cues.

I think the novels work best when there's either milestones for the authors to go by, i.e. the movies and in the early EU Dark Empire, or if it's a large project that's meticulously planned like New Jedi Order. After NJO, I think that central planning really went out the window and now they just have a general idea of what they're going to do and write their novels. I thought Jacen especially was a mess in terms of characterization in LOTF, and that's not even considering the huge shift from The Unifying Force to The Joiner King, not just for Jacen, but Luke as well.

So anyway, getting off the point of the thread, but to sum my point I think the primary unique benefit that novels bring to the table is really wasted by a majority of SW novels, but I appreciate the ones that bring it. And I wouldn't mind seeing either Tales of the Jedi or Dark Empire novelized, but I would rather see it novelized by someone like Stover or Luceno.

And I wouldn't mind seeing the author take liberties with the stories either, especially Dark Empire. For instance, assuming that The Force Unleashed 3 is either never made or its conclusion leaves Starkiller's status unclear (rather than killing him), I think it would be interesting if he was involved in the events of Dark Empire, since he would work well as an ally yet foil to Luke due to the opposite nature of their training (like Mara Jade). And at about that time in the story, Luke is as, or more, powerful than Starkiller, so he wouldn't be stealing Luke's thunder. It just seems like it would work rather well since Starkiller is sort of privy to some of the dark side and Sith secrets that Luke is seeking in that series to understand his father, and Starkiller probably knew Vader as well as almost anyone. It works well with Luke trying to figure his father out and understand him, as well as trying to figure out how to conquer the dark side from within. I could actually write a whole lot more about why I think this is an awesome idea but I'd further derail this thread, unless it falls under the concept of "Darth Whoever"?

I like respecting the past EU like Dark Empire, but I also wouldn't mind seeing characters like Starkiller integrated into events like it, because having characters like Starkiller and Ahsoka (or even minor ones like Jax Pavan) drop off the face of the galaxy seems out of place, and I find it unsatisfying if they're going to take the easy way out and simply kill both of them off to explain their absence, because I enjoy their characters. It's just a shame so much timeline is mapped out so that I can't continue to enjoy stories about them due to the fact that their absence is conspicuous (I think their non-action in big storylines can be explained the same as Kyle Katarn's, but I doubt it will be handled that way). The same goes for Jacen; I would be so much happier with the Expanded Universe and Star Wars as a whole if he didn't become Caedus and didn't die, or even if he simply didn't die and was participating in Fate of the Jedi attempting to atone.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Allow me to clarify:

I love the Star Wars comics as a medium. I'd love to see novels set in the Legacy era but not a novelization or the series. I just thought that Tales of the Jedi or Dark Empire could have been handled a bit better. Personally I think that a book treatment could fix several things that have been complained about and while I'd honestly miss the artwork (love Dark Empire's art) books just handle certain things a bit better while comics are special in their own way. The Watchmen would suck as a novel, so would Legacy or Knights of the Old Republic comics. So yes, there that is.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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Darth Sidious is my favorite (I especially like his laughter Twisted Evil )

Marka Ragnos novel would be nice. I think his story has a lot of unused potential, plus other big name Sith like Sadow, Ludo Kressh and Vitiate could appeare in it.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I honestly wanted Ragnos or Sadow, but Nihilus would be amazing to.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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I would like a Nihilus novel for the same reason I've said I'd like Ragnos. Could include lot of other known characters.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Crash Override wrote:
Personally, I find SW to be a primarily audiovisual experience... novels are really the bottom rung in terms of my enjoyment of Star Wars as far as the medium goes, and in order for a SW novel to be great it has to really be an outstanding novel.

How interesting! These days novels are usually the only EU I indulge in. I prefer books to comics, video games, even movies really (although it's very debatable whether I enjoy SW books or movies more). For me books never get old. There are a couple books I've read a million times and I still love them and find new ways to appreciate them.

The other mediums tend to get older faster, at least for me. Some movies I could probably watch infinitley (Chris Nolan movies, Pixar movies, Star Wars etc.) and they would never lose their punch, but for most movies I watch them a certain number of times and then they're kind of worn out. I still enjoy them, but once you know the script by heart...
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:22 am Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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Reepicheep wrote:
Crash Override wrote:
Personally, I find SW to be a primarily audiovisual experience... novels are really the bottom rung in terms of my enjoyment of Star Wars as far as the medium goes, and in order for a SW novel to be great it has to really be an outstanding novel.

How interesting! These days novels are usually the only EU I indulge in. I prefer books to comics, video games, even movies really (although it's very debatable whether I enjoy SW books or movies more). For me books never get old. There are a couple books I've read a million times and I still love them and find new ways to appreciate them.

The other mediums tend to get older faster, at least for me. Some movies I could probably watch infinitley (Chris Nolan movies, Pixar movies, Star Wars etc.) and they would never lose their punch, but for most movies I watch them a certain number of times and then they're kind of worn out. I still enjoy them, but once you know the script by heart...


At the risk of going off on a tangent; I think I prefer comics. To me they're timeless, as once you've finished you can flick through to have a look at the artwork, not like in a book where it's all about the writing style and what's happening, so you could flick though and be lost on what's happening. And comics have a definitive individuality to them, you can tell who was involoved just by looking at the artwork and each one has a different visual interpretation of a characters and such. I know there are some very well trained SWEU'ers who can tell from a writing style, but comics seem more accessible. Don't get me wrong, I love books, I just like the comics more. Obviously, I like some book more than comics, but I've read more comics than books.

(could this warrant its own thread?)
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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One aspect of Shadows of the Empire that I liked was that Joe McNeely was commissioned to do a soundtrack for the book. Having just re-read the novel and having spent more time with the soundtrack over the past several years than the novel, I found myself matching the tracks on the soundtrack to certain points on the book (without listening to it, I actually just remembered and am about to do so).

Ten years ago I was wondering if they were going to do a soundtrack to go along with the New Jedi Order series. That would have been nice.

Anyway, after reading Darth Plagueis, I think I'd like to see a novel about the Sorcerers of Tund. They're pureblooded Sith sorcerers that were exiled to Tund prior to the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles that became the Dark Lords of the Sith that practiced powerful magic, but were wiped out by Rokur Gepta after he learned all their secrets.

Now, given that Rokur Gepta was actually kind of crappy and didn't know any powerful Sith magic, I've developed two possible conclusions:

A) Either the Sorcerers of Tund really sucked.

or

B) That Rokur Gepta was fooled into believing that he learned all their secrets but that they knew he was a jerk all along and didn't teach him anything of consequence, and subsequently fooled him into thinking that he killed him when he wiped out all life on Tund.

I think B would make for an interesting novel and if Star Wars plans to go to the Sith well again at least the Sorcerers of Tund would make for some diversity there.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:16 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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That would be an interresting novel. At least I would read it. Wink

But I would want to give another option:
C: Rokur Gepta wasn't as strong in the Force as he lead people to believe and after learning what he could from the Sorcerers he destroyed them to be the most powerfull Sorcerer of Tund left alive.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:57 am Reply with quote  
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  Taral-DLOS
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I think a Nihilus story would be really cool, starting with his origins, and culminating with the events of KOTOR 2. I also think it would be cool to make his pre-Sith identity be someone we already know, like Lucien Draay.

A Darth Sion book would be cool too, since it would tie neatly to the Great Sith War (the KOTOR Campaign Guide established he fought under Exar Kun during that conflict as a Marauder).

I would not want to see a Marko Ragnos novel. Not because he sucks (I do think he was pretty cool), but because not too much happened during his lifetime. The Sith Empire was completely isolated from the Republic until after his death. The only thing a Ragnos book could do is further establish the Sith Conquest of the exiled Tapani house, bringing humans into the Sith Empire (per The Old Republic, Lost Tribe Of The Sith, and Fate Of The Jedi).
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'd still like to see novelized versions of the KOTOR games. I'll probably never play the games, unless they re-release them, but I'd like to know the story.
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