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Who should Ben go out with?
Seha Dorvald
42%
 42%  [ 9 ]
Tahiri Veila
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Jysella Horn
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Other (please specify)
28%
 28%  [ 6 ]
Vestara Khai
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 21

 PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Etain_Skirata
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Ah, yes.. Allston. Author's who create a character are, contrary to popular belief, just as capable as anyone else of messing that character up.

But, then, maybe I'm just biased against her all around given when she was introduced (any Jedi who was brought in after the end of NJO chronologically is on my least favorite characters list automatically, as in can't do anything right, no matter how hard they [the authors] might try).


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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  FateotJediFreak
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sorry for the change of subject...but is there anyway to change your vote? or are you stuck with it forever? Wink
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Yeah, I want to change my vote to Ahsoka. I'm sure she's frozen in Carbonite somewhere. Laughing
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Etain_Skirata wrote:
Ah, yes.. Allston. Author's who create a character are, contrary to popular belief, just as capable as anyone else of messing that character up.

But, then, maybe I'm just biased against her all around given when she was introduced (any Jedi who was brought in after the end of NJO chronologically is on my least favorite characters list automatically, as in can't do anything right, no matter how hard they [the authors] might try).


I'm afraid I don't follow. How has Allston messed up Seha's character?
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
Jacen would think a rock was Force-sensitive if it suited his purposes. Said Solo vouching for anything was never an adequate explanation.


And you base this statement on exactly what? Yes, Jacen would use just about anyone to suit his purposes, but aside from the fact that Jacen was Force strong and could detect the Force in others, Seha was accepted at the Jedi academy. All the other masters could sense her Force connection too.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Etain, I've been a fan of Seha for quite a while now (I even used to have Seha Dorvald's #1 Fan on my banner) and, while I'm not as enthusiastic as I was, I still have a soft spot for her and I have clear memories of her in the books.

Seha was on-behind compared with the other apprentices because she was taken to the Temple at an older age than most. That doesn't mean she is weak in the Force.

And about her being naive and a copy of Jacen, how long has it been since you read Fury? Seha is under-confidant and was swayed by Jacen to help him probably because he made her feel important and it helped that Seha had a crush on Jacen. However, in Fury, she comes before the Council and confesses what she's been doing. It's a good scene.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Reepicheep wrote:
However, in Fury, she comes before the Council and confesses what she's been doing. It's a good scene.


That's the scene that made me like her. Before that I didn't care one way or another and figured she was a throw away character. But you could tell that the Masters, despite her actions, couldn't help but be somewhat impressed by her at that moment. Then her doing what it takes to make up for it, sealed the deal.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Etain_Skirata
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@Reep: I read Fury once when it was first released. I'm the kind of person that, if someone can't convince me quickly to like a character, I revert to hating them. I'm also the kind of person who, once my mind's made up, it won't change for anything.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Werehunter wrote:
That's the scene that made me like her. Before that I didn't care one way or another and figured she was a throw away character. But you could tell that the Masters, despite her actions, couldn't help but be somewhat impressed by her at that moment. Then her doing what it takes to make up for it, sealed the deal.


Her scenes in FOTJ, especially with Bandy, are really good as well.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Etain_Skirata
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re weakness: If being older when the Jedi training begins means that one will never be very strong in the Force, how does anyone here justify Kyp, Luke, or any of the early NR\ late Rebellion trainees? As Corran pointed out to Luke in "I, Jedi", they were all adults. They already had the morality in place that would create the template for the Jedi Knights and Masters they'd ultimately become.

Even teenagers, or older children for that matter, are that way.

The old saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind when I think of Seha. For her to defend Jacen\Caedus' actions even to herself, regardless of how she felt about him... that's the sign of her own moral weakness.

The fact that she did wait to tell those on the Council what was going on was another thing that seriously bugged me about her. If she were a half-way decent being (person in this case), she would have gone to them right away, and not vacillated about it for any length of time.

My reasoning about Luke and Jacen being blinded by their own loyalty to the GA Order's way of doing things still stands as my main issue with her alleged Force-sensitivity, which I still believe is a poor excuse made by an author for putting her at the Jedi Temple in the first place. If she were really Force-sensitive, either she would have found her way to the training ground on her own or her parents would have realized she was different and brought her in for training. Nobody writing SW even hints at her age other than that she's a teenager ("Backlash").

During "Dark Nest" trilogy, Jaina, Lowie, and several other young\junior Jedi Knights spoke out against the GA Order using many of the same things that I, as a huge fan of virtually anything SW, found to be an issue with it. I'm pretty sure at least one of them made a point that they didn't trust the changes Jacen had convinced Luke to make. Luke jumped to the conclusion that they were questioning him, dismissing their concerns without a second thought, and exiled them in the midst of a power trip. Concerns that, as it turned out later, were valid.

Mara went on her last self-designated mission because she'd come to doubt Luke's ability to see things clearly. If even his wife questioned that, what does that say about Luke as a worthy leader? Of course, I hope that when Luke finally, permanently, steps down, someone who fell under Jacen's sway at any point isn't made Grand Master instead.

Without that creep Vergere (sp?) messing with Jacen's morality and introducing the "Unifying Force", as she understood it, on "Yuuzhan'tar"\Coruscant during NJO, I wouldn't have a problem with anything, or anyone, introduced after that. As it stands, I doubt the worthiness of any Jedi being introduced to the EU during the GA-era books to be a real Jedi at all, in line with Anakin Solo's views of what constitutes a Jedi.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Vergere didn't teach Jacen about the Unifying Force.

Zonama Sekot did.

But it's more difficult to retcon Zonama Sekot as a Sith candidate. (Not to mention that what the Unifying Force is was also horrifically retconned, but I digress...)

And I suspect this would require a new thread.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
If she were really Force-sensitive, either she would have found her way to the training ground on her own or her parents would have realized she was different and brought her in for training.


Seha was born on Coruscant right before the Yuuzhan Vong War. Most of her family was killed during the invasion. She and her father survived by going underground but he was killed and Seha was left to survive on her own. Jacen found her after the war ended and did bring her to the Jedi Academy.

Quote:
Luke jumped to the conclusion that they were questioning him, dismissing their concerns without a second thought, and exiled them in the midst of a power trip.


Luke exiled Tesar and Lowie because they betrayed him and the Council to the Thuls. He sent Tahiri with them because she said she would have done it as well. If you'd reread the scene in DNT (which, btw, I just did last week), you'd know the exile to Dagobah had nothing to do with Jacen. Luke actually followed up on what the 3 said about Jacen.

Quote:

Mara went on her last self-designated mission because she'd come to doubt Luke's ability to see things clearly.


LOTF is plotted so badly plotted and has such serious mis-characterizations in it that I discount much of the series but especially any Jedi characterizations done by Karen Traviss.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Werehunter wrote:
That's the scene that made me like her.

Me too.

Etain_Skirata wrote:
re weakness: If being older when the Jedi training begins means that one will never be very strong in the Force, how does anyone here justify Kyp, Luke, or any of the early NR\ late Rebellion trainees?

You don't 'become' strong with the Force, you're born with it. Seha's training was on-behind, but that doesn't mean she'll stay on behind. I can switch classes mid-semester and it will take a while for me to get up to speed, but once I'm there, I'm potentially just as capable as anyone else in the classroom.

Etain_Skirata wrote:
For her to defend Jacen\Caedus' actions even to herself, regardless of how she felt about him... that's the sign of her own moral weakness.


Is it enough to condemn her though? Everyone has moral weaknesses and Seha admitted hers and overcame it. Overcoming things like that is part of training.
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Not to mention, several of the Jedi Masters were defending Jacen's actions at one point or another.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Ugh, LOTF makes my head hurt.

Seha is underutilized IMO. More than Allston need to use her. Golden has started to, still haven't read Ascension so I don't know her deal there, but the Jedi around Ben's age need to be developed the same way that Kyp et al. were and the way that Zekk, Tenel Ka, et al. were.

We need more Seha Dorvald and Avinoam Arelis! That's one of the issues with FOTJ, IMO, is that there's a lot of new Jedi and new names, but I don't know any of them from Adam.


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