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the midichlorians in the OT

 
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the midichlorians in the OT
 PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Aragorn
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Listening to another podcast's review of Plagueis (ours ... Star Wars Book Report ... will be up Friday, Jesse tells me) and am kinda amused by one person's belief that the original trilogy's lack of talk about midichlorians has a religious connotation. I think it's the fact that 35 years ago, GL had no concept of what a midichlorian was and it wasn't intrinsic to the very basic popcorn movie he was telling. Stop trying to retcon everything, boys. The Star Wars universe is a moving, living entity and in 1977, George was trying to tell an action-adventure story, not give a dissertation on theology. As I said to Jesse, to me, Yoda's simplistic explanation of the force to Luke is akin to a parent teaching a chiild a concept. You start off simply and then get more advanced and detailed as you go. And yet some people just can't wrap their head around the fact that concepts can grow and change.
What do you folks think?
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I don't think the idea of the Living Force and the Unifying Force as explained in the OT was simplistic.

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things (The Living Force). It surrounds us. Penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. (The Unifying Force)"

"You mean it (the force) controls our actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your command."

This is a clear and at the same time confusing explanation for the two aspects.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force."

Why or rather in what way is the Force more powerful?

We are given many examples of how a Jedi uses the Living Force, but the greater meaning of the Unifying Force, shown in the dialogues about destiny and the future and all beings connected, is more mysterious.

As for midiclorians, I never saw what the big deal is. In the EU there are many species that directly interact with the Force, often on a primal level. It explains that midiclorians are micro-organisms that interact with the force and by seeing how many midiclorians a person has in their body you can tell how Force sensitivity (ability to control the Force) they have.

People have interpreted this as saying that midiclorians are the cause or creators of the Force, rather than just being a part of it. That's not the way I ever saw it and I don't think it's meant to be taken that way.

Non-Jedi have very little understanding of what the Force is. They respect it's power In the Living Force, which is why they say "May the Force be with you!" which is absurd because the Force will AlWAYS be with you, as the Jedi say. It's about following the will of the Unifying Force.

It stands that non-Jedi wouldn't know or care about midiclorians and that knowledge would be lost with the Jedi after Order 66. Yoda and Ben never told Luke about them because it doesn't really matter to him or to the Jedi at that moment.


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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
because the Force will AlWAYS be with you, as the Jedi say.


That's something specifically said only by Ben to Luke, IIRC. In the literature we have seen certain instances where the Force was effectively not with a character for whatever reason. Also, the Force being said to be "with" someone is often synonymous with events working out in that character's favor, as seen in AOTC.
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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I believe it was also said by Ackbar, as well as Han (and maybe Lando) at some point.

Anyway, I can see how it's felt that the Force has a more religious connotation. It certainly feels very mystical. I'm sure this is owed to the way the stories were presented - in a mythological way. It's more basic, as you say, with the fight between light and dark, and has a lot more connections (not the best word, but I'm still half asleep, so forgive me) to mythological stories, what with the old wizard, the princess, the evil prince, the dragon and what have you.

Now that's not to say that the OT's lack of midichlorians has a religious connotation, it's simply that the Force (and the story) were presented in a more mystical, more ethereal way. Now, contrast and compare that to the PT, we can see that it's different - as was noted on Beyond The Films, with Mark, Nathan and Pete, the PT was more of a tragedy (not of Darth Plagueis).

Personally, I'm okay with midichlorians. I like them. Everything - in our universe - has a scientific explanation; it's merely that, for some things, we haven't discovered it yet. I don't see why the Force - and the midichlorians - should be any different.

And on the subject of Darth Plagueis, it gave me a deeper sense of understanding of what it means to bring balance to the Force. I remember on TOS, we'd discuss what exactly that meant. Whether it meant the number of Jedi vs Sith, or whether it means to have the Sith wiped out completely (if I remember correctly, this was GL's explanation. This doesn't correspond to the western way we perceive balance, yet it does so with the eastern philosophies). Now I think of it more as a case of having nothing at all to do with the Sith, as such as it does have to do with that rend in the Force, and the expansion of the dark side of the Force. With the defeat of Sidious and Vader, their feeding of that ceased, and Luke's feeding of the light side into it balances it out, so that there were equal measures of the dark and light.

Anyway, I think I got away from the original subject, so I'll stop.
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:10 am Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Life Is The Path wrote:
I believe it was also said by Ackbar, as well as Han (and maybe Lando) at some point.


I was referring to the WILL ALWAYS part, which did not appear in those "May the Force be with you" instances.

Life Is The Path wrote:
Whether it meant the number of Jedi vs Sith, or whether it means to have the Sith wiped out completely (if I remember correctly, this was GL's explanation. This doesn't correspond to the western way we perceive balance, yet it does so with the eastern philosophies).


It's not a question of western vs. eastern, because it does correspond to the way we perceive balance. Jedi and Sith are Force users. They are not the Force. As a result the balance of the Force is not a balance of Force users, and thus wiping out the Sith does not conflict with the balance of the Force.

Changing the balance of the Force to "a balance of Jedi and Sith" is simply not a valid substitution. It is not consistent with either TPM ( the film which introduced the term "balance of the Force" in the first place ) or ROTS, and also violates the idea that balance is restored due to ROTJ.

Life Is The Path wrote:
Now I think of it more as a case of having nothing at all to do with the Sith, as such as it does have to do with that rend in the Force, and the expansion of the dark side of the Force. With the defeat of Sidious and Vader, their feeding of that ceased


Then it does have something to do with them.
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Back on topic...I definitely think there is room for the concepts to grow in Star Wars. That's one of the great tings about the books. It gives fans a chance to see some of the concepts mentioned in the films and tv shows explored.

While the initial introduction of midichlorians in TPM was kind of meh for me, I like how Luceno built on them in Darth Plagueis. In a way, Luceno brought some of the mystery back to them, bringing it back full circle.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Arawn_Fenn wrote:
Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
because the Force will AlWAYS be with you, as the Jedi say.


That's something specifically said only by Ben to Luke, IIRC. In the literature we have seen certain instances where the Force was effectively not with a character for whatever reason. Also, the Force being said to be "with" someone is often synonymous with events working out in that character's favor, as seen in AOTC.


This seems a lot like splitting hairs over semantics to me. You also criticized LITP for their ideas about what it means to bring balance to the Force. That can come off as a little hostile. Maybe you should give us your own interpretations of these things instead.

When you say the force was "not with a character" do you mean that they went against the will of the Force or "events working out in a character's favor" didn't happen? Or do you mean that they were physically separated from the Force, as the Yuuzan Vong were? I don't really feel like either of these ideas was present in the OT which is why I said that.

As for the idea that having the Force be "with" someone is to bring about personal victory for them is clearly against the ideas of the Jedi. I think it shows that ignorance of the Force by non-Jedi that I mentioned. They seem to think that it is simply the ability to perform magic tricks that the Jedi do and/or Luck. Han Solo says that he doesn't believe in luck and he doesn't believe in destiny, to him if the Force exists at all it is merely a tool.

Supporting that idea and the notion of the Force as Religion:

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

Also:

"The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." - Grand Moff Tarkin

"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes..." - Admiral Motti

You have characters from both the Empire and Rebellion referring to the Force as a religion, but in the sense that they are using it it does not seem to be the way that the Jedi view it. It also shows that they don't understand the difference between the Jedi and the Sith.


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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
When you say the force was "not with a character" do you mean that they went against the will of the Force or "events working out in a character's favor" didn't happen?


I was talking about instances where a character tries to use the Force but it seems to have momentarily deserted them.

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
This seems a lot like splitting hairs over semantics to me.


Not really, because your claim was about semantics. You claimed that "may the Force be with you" was a phrase popular with non-Jedi due to their ignorance of the Force, while "the Force will always be with you" is what the Jedi say. However, the Jedi say "may the Force be with you" to one another in the PT, while the only Jedi to ever say "the Force will be with you always" was OT Obi-Wan when speaking to Luke.
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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Arawn_Fenn wrote:


I was talking about instances where a character tries to use the Force but it seems to have momentarily deserted them.


Can you give some examples of this?

Quote:
Not really, because your claim was about semantics. You claimed that "may the Force be with you" was a phrase popular with non-Jedi due to their ignorance of the Force, while "the Force will always be with you" is what the Jedi say. However, the Jedi say "may the Force be with you" to one another in the PT, while the only Jedi to ever say "the Force will be with you always" was OT Obi-Wan when speaking to Luke.


Fair enough. My understanding was that this thread was about specifically midiclorians and more generally about the differences in the Force or knowledge of the Force in the OT from the PT.

In the OT only non Jedi say "May the Force be with you." And What Ben says conforms to the ideas about the Force that he and Yoda tell Luke.

Apparently in the PT the Jedi think that the Force would not be ever-present. I think that does offer a different perspective than what is expressed in the OT. That may very well be the correct one and Obi-wan could be mistaken or misleading, but that is the only Jedi viewpoint we get and so are inclined to believe that is the Jedi's teachings.


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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
Can you give some examples of this?


Jax Pavan in Jedi Twilight, and Roan Shryne in Dark Lord. I guess I was also thinking of the Force not warning Aurra Sing of an attacker in Street of Shadows, but that is a little different.
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