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Sympathy for the Empire
 PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I don't see how we are expected to have sympathy for the Empire. It made sense that the Jedi and the Empire had a truce during NJO because the alternative was that they'd all die, but now they seem to be in total support of the Bad Guys of the entire mythology for the last 60 years, over 20 of which these particular characters have been fighting against!

Does that not make sense to anyone but me? I would have expected the Jedi to break with the Alliance the second that Daala was elected as president. It baffles me that the Jedi would tolerate the notion of the Empire being in control of the Galaxy again, even if it is Fell.

The idea seems to be that they just opposed Palpatine and didn't have a problem with the rest of the Empire. Doesn't make a lot of sense since Tarkin built the Death Star, Thrawn tried to wipe out the New Republic, along with Daala and Issard. It's not like it's only Sith that are the problem, it's that supposedly the ideas of the Empire went against what the New Republic and the Jedi stood for.

Is this just an attempt to throw out the whole Bantham era?


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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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The Empire without the Emperor is just a government. The Moffs can be kind of sick but for the most part they're people who have chosen a different life.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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We don't know how Fel becomes emperor yet. It could make for a really interesting story.
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I would like to see a book that explores the people of the Empire, not the moffs and admirals. Just about all of their leaders seem corrupt or racist. Maybe one out of ten is okay. But it would be nice to see the people of the Empire, something to remind us of who and what they are like. Are they racist and corrupt like their moff leaders or are they just normal people in a bad system?
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  JediMara77
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TIE Fighter series!!!
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Baloo
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I'll be honest, I have plenty of sympathy for Grand Admiral Thrawn, and even more so, Admiral Pellaeon.


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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
But it would be nice to see the people of the Empire, something to remind us of who and what they are like. Are they racist and corrupt like their moff leaders or are they just normal people in a bad system?


Didn't they touch on the idea in LOTF? I seem to remember that was the only series that ever spoke for "the little guy". Unfortunately I think the conclusion was that the populace is just a bunch of stooges that go along with whatever they are told to do. I guess art imitates life.

It's not that I personally don't like the Empire, or can't like any of them as protagonists in their own stories. It's just that I can't see the Jedi ever liking them, as they are the protagonists and the Empire has always been the antagonists.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I would like to see a book that explores the people of the Empire, not the moffs and admirals. Just about all of their leaders seem corrupt or racist. Maybe one out of ten is okay. But it would be nice to see the people of the Empire, something to remind us of who and what they are like. Are they racist and corrupt like their moff leaders or are they just normal people in a bad system?


Thrawn wasn't corrupt. Neither was Pellaeon.

I don't believe the New Empire is as bad as the Palpatine Empire.

Neither do I believe that the New Republic is better than the New Empire. Both still have slavery and racists. Both have corrupt politicians. There isn't a since of justice in the NR since, Jedi can (and do) get away with murder (Durren & Tahiri).
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Well I think Thrawn bears special mention. Whatever you say about Thrawn, at the end of the day he was a badguy. Thrawn is just as bad as Daala when it comes to murder. Daala might have a higher body count, but Zahn clearly showed that Thrawn would mercilessly execute a crew member on the bridge for making a mistake. That's not something the Jedi would ever condone.

Now Pellaeon as far as I can remember was a much more sympathetic character. The Jedi being on good terms or friendly with him makes complete sense. He always felt like someone who wound up in his position through circumstance, and made the best of it without compromising himself or becoming corrupt.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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I personally have always liked Pellaeon. He is just a nice guy who happens to be working for the Empire - and he started out in the Old Republic. His loyalty seems to be to the state, not the people in charge.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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The Jedi wouldn't condone murder? Seems to me that in the EU their very actions say other wise. Kyp Durran was not held accountable for his actions. Tahiri is not really being held accountable for her actions. Yet, in both cases the Jedi stood by these two and used the excuse that they were either under the Darkside or a Darkside user's influence thus, they should not be held accountable for murder. Yet, anyone alse is put to death (including Sith) since they are not a Jedi. Mad

Murder isn't right and Durran needs to be brought to justice for what he did. Tahiri was guilty of murder as well and she either needs to have a life sentence or the death penulty.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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SidiousThrawn wrote:
The Jedi wouldn't condone murder? Seems to me that in the EU their very actions say other wise. Kyp Durran was not held accountable for his actions. Tahiri is not really being held accountable for her actions. Yet, in both cases the Jedi stood by these two and used the excuse that they were either under the Darkside or a Darkside user's influence thus, they should not be held accountable for murder. Yet, anyone alse is put to death (including Sith) since they are not a Jedi. Mad

Murder isn't right and Durran needs to be brought to justice for what he did. Tahiri was guilty of murder as well and she either needs to have a life sentence or the death penulty.


That is an interesting perspective, but it's getting a little bit more towards Force philosophy and morality of the Jedi, than about the Empire.

I'm not sure whether the dark side is an "excuse" or whether it counts as mitigating circumstances for the commission of crimes. It seems to go both ways for the Jedi where they regard a Dark Side user as more evil or dangerous than a normal person, they also seem to be more forgiving of them then a normal person as well.

As for holding Jedi accountable they do that, just not that they believe punishment is the best and sole means of doing so. A Jedi that vows to learn from their mistakes and to work to correct them and not make them again is generally sufficient accountability for them.

The morality of Jedi using violence and killing others is what originally led Jacen Solo to turn away from the Jedi ways because he thought that it was not in line with their view of the Light Side of the Force. Of course that pretty heavy and legitimate philosophical questioning has been thrown out the window by his Sith retcon.

In theory the big difference between the Empire and the Republic is that the Empire is beholden to one supreme ruler and not democratic and neither is it's participation voluntary. The Empire seizes control of planets that it wants to possess and instills itself as ruler, regardless of what the inhabitants of that planet want. Or destoys it if it does not submit. And that is why the Jedi oppose it.

In theory anyway... I've talked about how the distinction is frequently blurred when it comes to the New Republic and especially the G.A.


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Jaina Solo Fel
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:

In theory the big difference between the Empire and the Republic is that the Empire is beholden to one supreme ruler and not democratic and neither is it's participation voluntary. The Empire seizes control of planets that it wants to possess and instills itself as ruler, regardless of what the inhabitants of that planet want. Or destoys it if it does not submit. And that is why the Jedi oppose it.

In theory anyway... I've talked about how the distinction is frequently blurred when it comes to the New Republic and especially the G.A.

I would agree with you if you were talking about Palpatine's Empire, but I don't think it's the same government anymore. As the books progressed, the name of the government stayed the same but nearly all of the main players changed. The New Republic and the Empire were at war for so long that nearly all of the Empire's previous leaders were either killed or lost their positions. The resulting Remnant was such a mess that it was nearly impossible to rule by fear, because anyone who felt threatened would side with the New Republic. Thus, many beings who rose to power were those who could get others to follow them willingly (i.e. Pellaeon).

Also, during this transition period, the Empire had no supreme ruler, because the Emperor was dead and anyone else who tried to claim that position didn't last long. So the government fell to the Moffs, whom I don't see as being all that different from the Jedi Council. I don't remember exactly how it works post-RotJ, but in the Old Republic, the Council, not the Jedi Order as a whole, elected the Council members, , and nobody ever complained about that being unfair (well, except maybe Anakin). The Moffs all had equal authority, so they were forced to work together instead of one person being in charge. Even now, Jag is not the ultimate authority (although we all know he will eventually become Emperor and that will change. . . . but more on that later).

To quickly clarify here, I understand that there are and have been many corrupt Moffs. But as has been mentioned already, the GA is also fraught with corruption, so I don't think it really has any bearing on the current subject.

As far as the citizens are concerned, I don't think anyone is forced to be a citizen of the current Empire any more than they would be forced to be a citizen of the GA. Any planet currently a member of the Empire or the GA would have to be suffering greatly before they would undertake the headache of trying to change allegiances (the slave rebellions don't count because I don't think any of them belonged to any government other than the Hutts, and anyone under the Hutts does suffer greatly). Pellaeon, who I think we all pretty much agree is a decent man, stated that there were many systems who genuinely wanted to stay under the Empire because they felt more secure.

The Empire that crushed all opposition has vanished, I think. With the GA watching over its shoulder and a lack of superweapons, the Empire no longer has the ability to destroy dissenters on a large scale, so they must resort to more mundane forms of persuasion.

And now to discuss the subject of Emperor. I have said multiple times in other threads that I can't wait for Jag to become Emperor, mainly because I love Jag and I think the Empire would be better off with him in charge. But regardless of who holds the position, what is wrong with a monarchy? Our modern culture has made the word "monarch" synonymous with "dictator". We are ingrained with the belief that any government not subject to the will of the people is an evil one. Now, let me quickly clarify that I love the republic of the United States of America and would never in a million years want a monarchy instead. I like having some say over who runs my country. But, countless civilizations in history have survived and even thrived under one supreme ruler. The problem comes when the wrong person attains that position. In a government as vast as the Empire, any ruler who oppressed his people would quickly be opposed by either good leaders or ambitious underlings. Either way, eventually someone would take the throne who could provide stability to the Empire, which is, according to Pellaeon, the very reason its citizens choose to remain.

Anyway, that's kind of a lengthy breakdown, but I am currently so fed up with the GA that I'm basically rooting for the Empire. So consider this post a highly biased propaganda piece. Wink
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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One of my biggest gripes with the Bantam era is the way democracy is portrayed. It's portrayed as this thriving utopia where injustice never happens. I felt like I was being force fed a political agenda and it went against all reason.

I, like Jaina, love my country and probably wouldn't trade it for any other, but I strongly dislike democracy being treated as paradise. It's still run by human beings and, yes, injustice happens (how much it happens I don't know, but I know it does). I'd also like to see an autocratic government in Star Wars that isn't a dictatorship and it looks like my wish will soon be fullfilled.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Reepicheep wrote:
One of my biggest gripes with the Bantam era is the way democracy is portrayed. It's portrayed as this thriving utopia where injustice never happens.


Really? Because all I seem to remember is political infighting, backstabbing, indicisiveness, corruption and the Republic being on an almost perpetual brink of collapsing. Smile
That was in part what ultimately led to the formation of the GA during the Vong invasion.
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