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Sympathy for the Empire
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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You make a good case JSF.

I guess what it comes down to is that we are given a pretty clear good guys versus bad guys viewpoint in the OT and PT, but in the EU they've developed a more complex and realistic reality.


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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:31 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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That, and the fact that the Empire did change over time.
Their politics changed as the Empire learned from past mistakes and adopted to the realities of the universe around them.
In the end what was left was truly just another government and not the extension of the Sith Philosophy it started out with.
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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As for holding Jedi accountable they do that, just not that they believe punishment is the best and sole means of doing so. A Jedi that vows to learn from their mistakes and to work to correct them and not make them again is generally sufficient accountability for them. DPW

That's just it. In the NR the Jedi are treated as a special class of beings that are above the laws of normal citizens. They did not become accountable for their actions until Daala came to power. Once she came to power they were brought back down to the level of non-Force users and made to adhere to the same rules and regulations.

I'm glad to see that they are treated just as every other citizen in the GA is.
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Daala's real agenda was about destroying the Jedi Order, and her rhetoric was a blind. While I agree that the Jedi should not be above the law, they are not average citizens. They've consistently done far more to preserve the GA than the average citizen.
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Last edited by Cerrinea on Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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The only thing seperating Jedi from the average citizens is the Force. It does not give them carte-blanche to do and act in however manner that they want. Even though Daala wants to destroy the JO, I think many regular citizens would be ok with it. The Jedi have become arrogant. They even defy the government laws. These are the same laws that they would be all for enforcing on non-Jedi.
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 PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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And I don't think Daala citing a few examples illustrates that the entire Jedi Order are all running around like a bunch of loose cannons. She massively overstates the issue to nail Luke.

As far as the regular citizens of the GA go: they've already seen what happens when the entire Jedi Order is purged. They got Palpatine.

Anyway, I'd stack the Moffs up against the Jedi any day when it comes to arrogance and running roughshod over the law.
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:38 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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The Jedi serve the Republic, but they aren't it's servants. You can disagree that the will of the Force gives them a knowledge and a responsibility above the average person, as Daala does, but from a story perspective that is what we are led to believe is true.

Because the Jedi were bound to the corrupt whims of the government they were destroyed. Because Luke was responsible for both the revival of the Jedi and the Republic, the Jedi were once again put into the same conflict.

In the PT and NJO the Jedi council tried to distance themselves from being directly involved in decision making for the Republic. In contrast, in Fel's Empire you have the Imperial Knights, Force user's who combine Imperial leadership with an offshoot of Jedi teachings. I wonder if this would be going along with the intentions of the original Jedi or an aberration.


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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
.... in Fel's Empire you have the Imperial Knights, Force user's who combine Imperial leadership with an offshoot of Jedi teachings. I wonder if this would be going along with the intentions of the original Jedi or an aberration.

IDK, the Imperial Knights did vow to serve the Empire as long as he didn't fall to the Dark Side, in which case they would either have to redeem him or stop him.
But on the other hand you have a Force Strong Emperor running them, so they're not really serving the will of the Force first and foremost if you ask me.
They seem to be in a position where the Jedi where in during the Clone Wars. By directly serving a government they can't always stay on the light path and still follow orders.
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 PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I thought legacy and Legacy: War did a good job of examining that exact dilemma, Ree'dius.
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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Cerrinea wrote:
I thought legacy and Legacy: War did a good job of examining that exact dilemma, Ree'dius.


The comic delved into what it meant to be an Imperial Knight, true, but the question DPW was asking himself was what the Jedi of old would have thought about the Imperial Knights. Would they few it as a good or a bad thing. And to that I have to say that I don't know.
Although the Jedi during TCW where in somewhat the same position as the Imperial Knights are in when it comes to following orders, there are distinct differences which I don't feel the Jedi of Old could easily see past.
For example, there is the fact of them basically standing by while the Sith join up with the Empire and start their war on the Jedi. Only when it becomes clear Emperor Fel is in trouble do they react. That makes them truly another breed of Jedi and I think not one the Jedi of old would automatically like.
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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Baloo
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Lord Ree'dius wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
One of my biggest gripes with the Bantam era is the way democracy is portrayed. It's portrayed as this thriving utopia where injustice never happens.


Really? Because all I seem to remember is political infighting, backstabbing, indicisiveness, corruption and the Republic being on an almost perpetual brink of collapsing. Smile
That was in part what ultimately led to the formation of the GA during the Vong invasion.


Yeah, I agree with this. The Bantam era is almost nothing but political infighting! Thrawn Duology is a great example of this.

Though I jump ship when we get to NJO. Forget that mess.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Baloo wrote:

Yeah, I agree with this. The Bantam era is almost nothing but political infighting! Thrawn Duology is a great example of this.

Though I jump ship when we get to NJO. Forget that mess.


So is the Del Ray era, but maybe times ten. Perhaps a wise choice to jump off.

Then again the part in NJO where the senator goes to the Vong to try to make peace and they are like "we accept your offer, now accept this gift from us"... and they open the box and it's the dude's skeleton.

Pretty cool.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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Good idea jumping ship at NJO and beyond. I'd rather see novels covering more of the old republic than Del Ray continuing with the NJO/GA Era.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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SidiousThrawn wrote:
Good idea jumping ship at NJO and beyond. I'd rather see novels covering more of the old republic than Del Ray continuing with the NJO/GA Era.

I'm not agreeing with this. Especially not when with Old Republic novels all we are talking about is TOR tie-in novels.
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Still much to learn, you have. Surrender, you should."

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http://www.reedius.deviantart.com/


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:12 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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OT, but good point. It bugs me that stories set during the KOTOR games are referred to as "The Old Republic" since it covers a specific and rather short period, by Universe time line.

Dawn of the Jedi (25,000 BBY), Tales Of The Jedi (4,000 BBY), and the Prequels all take place during the Old Republic and have nothing to do with KOTOR.


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