Abortion

Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410

Your ability to rationalize your error and place the blame on the other person amazes me. And to stoop to calling me dishonest is decidedly disrespectful, although not at all surprising.
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Roqoo Depot co-founder.

This is rapidly heading from a discussion on abortion to finger pointing at who has insulted who in what way. I'm going to step in at this point and suggest we all take a few days off to let our heads cool before attempting to resume the debate.

To all please recognize I am NOT saying anyone here is in the right and didn't insult others. I'm an NOT excusing, defending, or otherwise condoning the behavior of either side. Should any of you feel that you were wronged PM a Mod or Admin who you feel comfortable talking to and we'll look into your grievance and decide the appropriate course of action to take.
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@Life: While I agree with Autobon's point of view (in that I cannot support abortion at any stage), you have every right to debate with him. You've kept your cool in every post and have never been ugly or rude. No worries about coming back with a defense. Again, I do agree with Autobon, but I'm interested in reading everyone's opinions, especially when presented with civility. Smile

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"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker

Ok I'll say debate can reopen as it seems that both sides wish to carry on a civilized debate. Let me emphasize that there must be an understanding that the debate must focus on the merits of individuals points. If it gets personal again with questions of an individual's integrity or any similar behavior discussion will be halted again.

I don't expect people to agree with the opposition but the discussion must remain civilized. (Lightsabers are OK, blasters not so much).
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Before I get into my position in the debate, as a biologist, I want to clarify something:

DNA does not decide gender. The expression of DNA decides gender. People with Y-chromosomes can be born as anatomical females. One specific gene, called SRY, on the Y-chromosome, must be activated in order for an embryo to anatomically become male. If it is in some way suppressed (either naturally through a genetic quirk or artificially through science), then the embryo will remain female. The anatomical structures that the genderless embryo develops can become sex organs of either sex. The male organ (EDIT: its name is censored, apparently) and clitoris both start from the same structure, as do testes and ovaries (fun fact: one of the reasons that it hurts so much to be kicked in the nads is because your body still thinks the testes are inside, and thus the pain reaction propagates through your abdomen too).

And none of this takes into account people who are genetically and/or anatomically of one gender, but psychologically of the other (I believe the appropriate term is Transgendered, though I admit to not knowing much about the phenomenon, beyond it being a real thing).

Now, on to the topic at hand:

I am pro-choice. A woman should have every right to end a pregnancy if she feels it is the right choice. She should never be forced to have one or to not have one. Choice is key.

Ergo, as a man, I almost feel that being anything other than Pro-Choice is wrong. It is not my place to decide what a woman should do with her body.

The various arguments for and against abortion itself are all fair, I feel (rape, economics, maternal health, infant health, religion, politics, etc.) But they all come down to one thing: if the woman feels that abortion is the best possible option, she should have the right to do so.

The fact that she has that right does not in any way impede any other mother, faced with the exact same situation, to make the decision to keep the baby instead. That's the beauty of Choice.

I am married, and my wife and I would like to start having children in the next couple of years. Indeed, we're in the "not trying, but would be happy if it happened accidentally" stage. But if she got pregnant years ago, while we were still dating, and neither of us could support a child, I would not have begrudged her the choice. She could choose to keep it, and I'd be there. She could choose to abort, and I'd be there. Granted, we would have had support from my family and hers, but there are many who do not, and for whom the unplanned birth of a baby might ruin multiple lives (the baby's included).

Admittedly, there is adoption, and in theory, giving up a newborn to adoption might be a best-of-all-worlds scenario (not needing to support the child, the child gets a loving home, the adoptive parents get kids of their own, etc.) But that's all in theory. In practise the adoption programs in Canada and the US are jokes. There are far too many kids in the system, I understand that there are abuses within the fostering system, etc. Couple that with the unique situation in the US where, in many states, gay couples are not allowed to adopt, due to some backwards fear (I am offended by this; any couple who proves they can support a child should be allowed to adopt, regardless of orientation; for further info, read "The Kid" and "The Committment" by Dan Savage). So putting a baby up adoption is not necessarily a reasonable alternative, if there is a chance that they could be stuck in an uncaring "system" for 18 years.

Frankly, the legal discussions on abortion in US law is getting to be a joke. There's that one state that wants to insist that pregnant women wanting an abortion also get a transvaginal ultrasound, insisting that "consent to penetrate is irrelevant, since they already consented to being penetrated when they got pregnant in the first place." I almost threw up when I read that. And then there's Rick Santorum, who thinks that a rape baby is a gift from God. Then there's another state (sorry, I don't remember which) whose anti-abortion laws would also cover spontaneous miscarriage.

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the abortion issue is not about murder, or the life of an unborn baby, but an issue about women's health. Women should be able to make the choice for themselves, in a legal and safe way, to control when and how they give birth.

I would add real quick one important point: outlawing abortion will not eliminate abortion. All it will do is drive it underground (not unlike alcohol prohibition in the 1920s). Women will still get abortions, but it will be unregulated and dangerous. The number of women who get sick or die from having abortions in unlicensd, unregulated, unmaintained facilities will skyrocket.

I'd like to end my post with one quick apology. I forget that we are all united on this board out of only one thing: our love for Star Wars. We all come from different economic, political, religious, etc. backgrounds. I had to remember that when reading the last few pages of posts, because extreme pro-life/no-abortions-for-anyone talk can make me uncomfortable or even a bit offended, just as I'm sure my pro-choice talk may offend some as well. It is not my intention to offend, just as I'm sure it was not anyone else's intention to offend.
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It was the year of fire… the year of destruction… the year we took back what was ours.
It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy.
It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed.
The year is 2261.
The place: Babylon 5.

Some of my above post might be a tad uncivilized. I'm sorry. I get passionate when I talk politics, especially when I talk gender and sexual rights.
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It was the year of fire… the year of destruction… the year we took back what was ours.
It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy.
It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed.
The year is 2261.
The place: Babylon 5.

I think the question of whether a foetus is human or not is void. A foetus will become, unless tampered with, a human being. I think, therefore, a foetus should have full protection of the law.

Once that has been established the taking of a foetus's life becomes a bigger issue than violating a woman's rights. This view is going to be unpopular, but I have to speak my mind. Would it make the pill easier to swallow if I said that neither action (violating a woman's rights or taking a life) are at all desirable, but that violating a woman's rights is the lesser of two evils? In the end it's more a violation of the baby's rights than the mother's.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

I think the state of development is irrelevant. I was just using foetus to mean 'unborn baby'. Kill as many sperm and egg cells as you want, but once they join, hands off. In other words, if an unborn baby is able to be aborted, it shouldn't be.

I didn't know foetus's could spontaneously abort. What are the chances of this? I'm guessing it's fairly slim.

Point taken, a foetus will almost always become a human being. I don't see this as changing anything however. As a healthy 18 year-old, there's a very slim chance I won't wake up tomorrow, but that very slim chance isn't an excuse for shooting me in the mean time.

Obviously this isn't a perfect example because a foetus isn't 'alive' the same way I'm alive so we'll say I was in suspended animation for a day.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

"Spontaneous abortion" is just a miscarriage. Any pregnant woman might suddenly miscarry. My mother lost a pregnancy before I was born. I'm told my mother-in-law lost at least one as well. My wife's grandmother lost quite a few, to the point where she refused to get in a car during her last pregnancy, out of fear that the vibrations might make her lose another.

I don't think Plan B should be considered abortion, but by your definition it is. Plan B is the Morning-After Pill. You had sex, you used protection, but found out after the fact that it didn't work (condom broke, forgot birth control pill, etc.), so you take Plan B. I'm not sure if it kills the ovum/zygote or if it prevents it from binding to the uterine wall, but in the end, the goal is to prevent pregnancy. In theory, it's no different from pre-sex birth control, but it has the impact of possibly killing a several-hour-old living embryo. But it isn't abortion, it's what responsible people do NOW to prevent the need for an abortion LATER.
_________________
It was the year of fire… the year of destruction… the year we took back what was ours.
It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy.
It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed.
The year is 2261.
The place: Babylon 5.

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