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Super Powered Characters
 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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The EU is full of characters, but lately a few (namely video game characters) have elevated the bar in Force powers.

Revan spoilers

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Emperor Vitiate isn't the only super powered character, but he is by far the most powerful Star Wars character ever created. This raises issues. When a villain is so powerful, how much more powerful do you have to make a hero to stop them? Once you've done that, how do you top it? At what point do you stop?

An EU full of super powered Force users could become too far fetched to be enjoyable (let alone believable). It would also limit the roles of people like Han Solo and Wedge Antilles. Where would characters like them fit it when the badguys are too powerful for them to handle?

So I ask, what does everyone else think of some of the super powered characters in the EU?
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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When something like this happens, it tends not to be about the hero being stronger, than the villain, it's about finding the villains' Achille's Heel. With most Sith, it's their cockiness that tends to come back and bite them, or using the villains' strength against them, causing the villain to destroy themselves etc.

One thing that has always annoyed me is in the TOR trailer, the one where the Republic troopers are in the jungle (can't remember the name) and the Republic Trooper rugby tackles a Sith. A Sith. I won't accept that.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I find it ridiculous that they continuously up the level of power. They have to, to keep the Force powered characters interesting, but they forget that most of the rest of the galaxy exists and that they could touch on that to. Shadow Games was an excellent look at other things in the galaxy, and if these super-villains would be left alone for awhile things could be more believable again. The Chosen One prophecy means nothing when everyone out there is stronger (Galen Marek anyone?). Ugh
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Totally agree. It's good fun to use the Force to pluck a star destroyer out of orbit and smash it down onto the surface of a planet in a video game, but it's pretty stupid in the context of a narrative storyline.

I griped about it before. As it is even without super heroes I already have to stretch my disbelief to the breaking point just reading a book called Star Wars.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I'm just not sure the games should even be included in canon. The Emperor is the most ridiculous godmod ever. I mean, it's a great story, but should it be considered canon?
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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It has to be considered canon if the Revan novel is to make any difference.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Aren't games the same level of canon as novels? In theory, it doesn't make a difference.


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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ Storylines yes, gameplay no. That's the way I always understood it.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Reepicheep wrote:
^ Storylines yes, gameplay no. That's the way I always understood it.


That is true but no less confusing because it's not entirely clear what separates the two. Does "story" only include cut-scenes where the player has no control over the characters? Does it include situations where you can control the character and are "obligated" to do a certain task by only having the choice to do it or not (to not continue forward in the game)? How about actions that you are enabled to do because they are part of the game structure, but not necessarily constitute what you are "supposed to do?

If the answer is only the cutscenes, then it doesn't make narrative sense since it requires your character to progress through the game under your own control to enable them. In other words Luke can't blow up the Death Star in a Star Wars game if you did not beat the level where he did so, and of course all the proceeding levels. To say that Luke blows up the Death Star in Star wars The Game whether or not you played the game at all effectively renders all parts of the game as non canon since it states that the story exists independent from the game itself and would therefor exist as a story even if the game was never made- which makes no logical sense.

If the answer is one or the other two, then it is even less clear.


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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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From Wookie:

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The overall scenario and documentation (cutscenes, manuals, strategy guides etc) are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.


That answers your Luke example question, but the other reason the Luke example isn't valid is because movie canon is G canon and therefore above C canon.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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An interesting example to look at is Legacy of the Force. Darth Caedus is a powerful Sith Lord. Karen Traviss, having an affection for Mandalorians, decided to up the power level of the Mandalorians in order to put them on par with a Sith Lord. In one book, one of the Mandalorians is able to grab Caedus by the ankle and crush it. Supposedly they could have killed him at that point, but they wanted to leave him to Boba or whatever.

No we can argue that it was over the top and out of line for her to do that. But it is a good example of how characters can get out of hand when the authors make them too powerful. In a game of escalating power levels, it's the readers who suffer.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I don't remember the ankle crushing, but I know they knee-capped him and then didn't kill him because Boba ordered them to leave Jacen for the Jedi to deal with.

Which was just plain stupid.

In this example, though, Denning started cleaning up the Mando Gary Stu godmods with Invincible. And I suppose that's what has to happen when one author obviously godmods a character. Other authors have to clean up the mess. Personally, I think the editors should exert more control in these situations.

So why isn't someone telling Bioware they just can't make these over-the-top, overpowered characters? The godmod Emperor may sound (and be) cool for a game, but should it translate to an actual EU canon character?
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Cerrinea wrote:
I don't remember the ankle crushing, but I know they knee-capped him and then didn't kill him because Boba ordered them to leave Jacen for the Jedi to deal with.

Which was just plain stupid.

In this example, though, Denning started cleaning up the Mando Gary Stu godmods with Invincible. And I suppose that's what has to happen when one author obviously godmods a character. Other authors have to clean up the mess. Personally, I think the editors should exert more control in these situations.

So why isn't someone telling Bioware they just can't make these over-the-top, overpowered characters? The godmod Emperor may sound (and be) cool for a game, but should it translate to an actual EU canon character?


Regardless of whether or not it should it has. TOR novel campaign has tied in, especially Revan, which is one of the problems I saw with it.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, games and novels are the same canon so a novel isn't required to make things canon. Considering that Drew Karpyshyn wrote Revan and was the senior writer for KotoR and SWTOR, he's the one primarily responsible for the Emperor and Revan. I hope he's got a good fix for his Emperor godmod.

Honestly, I was a little surprised even as I was reading Revan, what the emperor (as a nine year old) was allowed to do. I mean, compare that to what Anakin Skywalker ( as a nine year old) was capable of -- and Anakin was the most powerful Force user ever. You'd think at least someone would have said, "Ah, Drew, maybe you should pull back a little on the Force capabilities here."

I suppose there could be a fix for this coming down the road (characters have to have apparent weaknesses somewhere along the line). But I still think it's a dangerous precedent to set.

I think Drew has a bit too much gamer in him and not enough novelist.
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:47 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Its phenomenal the amount of inconsistencies within the Star Wars universe. Anakin was never the most powerful Force user, but rather the most powerful of his age, and even Yoda could have killed him at the peak of his power so it remains inconsistent. Personally I've gotten to where I think the Emperor could be interesting if we were given a glimpse inside his mind and I hold out hope for that.
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