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Darth Plagueis Novel by James Luceno
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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That is a really interesting point Ree'dius. Perhaps Bane did color my thinking more than I had considered. With these being the only two books (counting the Bane books as one) almost entirely from the Sith perspective the comparison might be unavoidable- and also unfair.

One of the problem of plotting Plagueis, (as you say, do we need to add in a lightsaber fight for fun?) is that everything that happens in it is already pretty well established and there isn't much room to put in new things. Others have commented that the necessity of keeping the Sith secret for continuity discontinued the possibility of a lot of significant action sequences.

I agree and even though the action sequences were well written and enjoyable, I immediately saw that they were there just so that they could be and would be demanded by readers and not really because they added much to the story. That's how a lot of things felt in the book.

DP is an ambitious book, for sure, but it's also clearly polarizing to fans. I think the problem is really in the timing. I think it would have worked out a lot better if it had been released earlier.


Last edited by Dog-Poop_Walker on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Lord Ree'dius wrote:
Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
haha. I think I've written more about Darth Plagueis than the actual length of the book.

Final Summary: I'm not the only one who thinks that this suffers from shallowness, so maybe it is the book and not just me. Or maybe it's me. Could be- but I still like the book and it made me think a lot so there is something.

I don't consider Bane books to be the model for which DP should follow. I think we agree they are different books and not meant to be the same. I simply used Bane to show the difference in portrayal of Sith in two different books.


And still when talking about Plagueis everyone who doesn't like it will compare it to Darth Bane. Two different people, two different times. While one stood at the beginning of an Order the other stood at it's end.
Plagueis is meant to be a "shallow"character, if that's what you want to call it. Born and bred for just the purpose of being a Sith Lord on a well defined path to domination. He isn't in turmoil all the time because he is just that sure of himself nor is there a need for all matter of adventures because most plans to galactic dominance are already set in motion.
He's like a very rich guy that is taking over the succesfull family bussiness and having an obsession on the side. If you compare Plagueis with someone like that you'll see a lot of comparisons also on the shallow part.
I just feel like people talking about shallowness or the nocvel being boring missed out on a great deal in the story.
To me it kinda shows that they really had no idea what to expect from a Sith novel set in this time frame.
Would you guys rather have seen some fights with Jedi crammed in just for kicks? Or have Plagueis and Sidious fighting rivaling Dark Siders.
Or would it have been better if Plagueis would have been full of doubts or develop feelings for people he intended to use as pawns so he could whine on and on about that? Im glad to have this more believeable Sith Lord than another over exaggerated one.


I can understand that, but if Plagueis by necessity has to be the way he was portrayed in Darth Plagueis, than I think it would have been better to not write the book. If I want to write a realistic book from a robot's perspective, I have to by necessity make him a soulless character. Maybe I shouldn't even bother trying, because a soulless protagonist is a bad protagonist. If a character isn't going to work, don't force it. Not every story needs to be told.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:02 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
Lord Ree'dius wrote:
Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
haha. I think I've written more about Darth Plagueis than the actual length of the book.

Final Summary: I'm not the only one who thinks that this suffers from shallowness, so maybe it is the book and not just me. Or maybe it's me. Could be- but I still like the book and it made me think a lot so there is something.

I don't consider Bane books to be the model for which DP should follow. I think we agree they are different books and not meant to be the same. I simply used Bane to show the difference in portrayal of Sith in two different books.


And still when talking about Plagueis everyone who doesn't like it will compare it to Darth Bane. Two different people, two different times. While one stood at the beginning of an Order the other stood at it's end.
Plagueis is meant to be a "shallow"character, if that's what you want to call it. Born and bred for just the purpose of being a Sith Lord on a well defined path to domination. He isn't in turmoil all the time because he is just that sure of himself nor is there a need for all matter of adventures because most plans to galactic dominance are already set in motion.
He's like a very rich guy that is taking over the succesfull family bussiness and having an obsession on the side. If you compare Plagueis with someone like that you'll see a lot of comparisons also on the shallow part.
I just feel like people talking about shallowness or the nocvel being boring missed out on a great deal in the story.
To me it kinda shows that they really had no idea what to expect from a Sith novel set in this time frame.
Would you guys rather have seen some fights with Jedi crammed in just for kicks? Or have Plagueis and Sidious fighting rivaling Dark Siders.
Or would it have been better if Plagueis would have been full of doubts or develop feelings for people he intended to use as pawns so he could whine on and on about that? Im glad to have this more believeable Sith Lord than another over exaggerated one.


I can understand that, but if Plagueis by necessity has to be the way he was portrayed in Darth Plagueis, than I think it would have been better to not write the book. If I want to write a realistic book from a robot's perspective, I have to by necessity make him a soulless character. Maybe I shouldn't even bother trying, because a soulless protagonist is a bad protagonist. If a character isn't going to work, don't force it. Not every story needs to be told.


Reep unfortunately a lot of people found Plagueis a connectable character. You didn't, that's fine, but it doesn't make him a soulless robot because you didn't find him interesting. I hated Katniss, but you'll defend her to the death. It all depends on point of view, that's literally a SW catchphrase.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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*opens mouth*

...

*shuts mouth*

Fair enough. Though I still think that Katniss is a better character. Wink
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
*opens mouth*

...

*shuts mouth*

Fair enough. Though I still think that Katniss is a better character. Wink


The soulless, manipulative robot vs the selfish, self-serving harpie? That's a fight I'd watch!
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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*takes off gloves*

At least Plagueis never hid in a closet to avoid responsibility.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:48 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Easy now guys. Back to the Hunger Games thread with you!


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:49 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
*takes off gloves*

At least Plagueis never hid in a closet to avoid responsibility.


Boom. Headshot.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:04 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Katniss cares about one person other than herself (Prim). By the end of the series, she cares about many more. Plagueis never has and never will.

And the only reason Plagueis didn't hide in a closet is because he has no emotions.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:10 am Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Reepicheep wrote:
Katniss cares about one person other than herself (Prim). By the end of the series, she cares about many more. Plagueis never has and never will.


True, but I believe Plagueis is supposed to be a villain. I don't think Palpatine cared for anyone either, but that doesn't make him less compelling.

Reepicheep wrote:

And the only reason Plagueis didn't hide in a closet is because he has no emotions.


I've never hidden in a closet, but I have emotions. Odd how that works.


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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:

And the only reason Plagueis didn't hide in a closet is because he has no emotions.


I've never hidden in a closet, but I have emotions. Odd how that works.


You've never been forced to fight to the death on live TV or seen the amount of death and violence that she has seen. Plagueis probably has seen a comparable amount of violence that Katniss has seen. The fact that he doesn't flinch (much less hide in a closet) shows just how emotionless he is.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:51 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
Old Master Ben wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:

And the only reason Plagueis didn't hide in a closet is because he has no emotions.


I've never hidden in a closet, but I have emotions. Odd how that works.


You've never been forced to fight to the death on live TV or seen the amount of death and violence that she has seen. Plagueis probably has seen a comparable amount of violence that Katniss has seen. The fact that he doesn't flinch (much less hide in a closet) shows just how emotionless he is.


Luke doesn't hide. I prefer to think of it as confident and immersed in the Force.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Haha, true. But then it's hard to compare Star Wars with THG because the former is idealized while the latter is more realistic. In real life Luke Skywalker would be considered a psychopath. I could imagine the version of Luke portrayed in the Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor prologue and epilogue hiding in a closet personally.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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Reepicheep wrote:
Haha, true. But then it's hard to compare Star Wars with THG because the former is idealized while the latter is more realistic. In real life Luke Skywalker would be considered a psychopath. I could imagine the version of Luke portrayed in the Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor prologue and epilogue hiding in a closet personally.


[/topic] Hunger Games is realistic? *raises eyebrow* Wink

And, uh, what kind of closet? Maybe that would explain all of the tension between him and Han Wink

And genuine question now: Why would Luke be considered a psychopath?
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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DannikJerriko wrote:
And genuine question now: Why would Luke be considered a psychopath?

Because he has killed many, many people and doesn't have a shred of PTSD.
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