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Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor Discussion Part 2
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:37 am Reply with quote  
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  Lord Ree'dius
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Reepicheep wrote:
Keep in mind, I don't consider Luke a psychopath. He's one of my favourite characters after all. I said that in real life Luke would be considered a psychopath, but because Star Wars is idealized science fiction, I can buy his goodness.


A psychopath because he blew up the Death Star? Or for some other reason?
If it's only because of the Death Star than I think your very,very wrong. In real life he wouldn't be considered a psychopath for that any more than any other soldier doing his duty in the line of fire. Now if he was marching of Imperial citizens of to the gas chambers it would be an other story, but blowing up a militairy installation during a time of war is not the sign of a psychopath.
I think you use a way to idealistic/simple point of view on killing or the reasons to kill if you think being a soldier makes you a psychopath.
I think Skuldrens' example of the A-bomb is a good one. Would you call the pilot who got the order for dropping it a psychopath? It's debatable how far someone would want to go in following orders, but that's another discussion altogether.

I believe that the death star had to be stopped and that Luke's a hero for stopping it. I don't think him not being crippled mentally afterwards is that unnatural, like stated before, he did think about all those people on the station and wasn't happy about them dying. He just wasn't scarred for live by that.
I truly believe you have to read a bit more on PTS to simply state that you would have to develop it by doing this or that or else you would be mentally deranged.
Developing PTS has a lot to do with a persons own psychology, POV and the way he reacts to and works out certain experiences.

On a side note there's also the fact that being a fighter- or bomber-pilot is the least personal (and so least traumatic) kind of warfare. They hardly ever see their victims in perosn, but instead they target objects or locations which are much easier for a mind to rationalize and thus pilots tend to have fewer cases of PTS than ground troops.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:20 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Taking away the bomber pilot element, Luke has chopped a lot of people up with his lightsaber. In real life, looking at knights who chopped people up with swords, would we think of them as psychopaths? Did they suffer from traumatic issues?
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ Well, I will say there is a reason why my chief passion is literary knights first, real knights second.

Darth Skuldren wrote:
It depends on how we define "thoroughly shaken." Let's say Luke's portrayal in current Star Wars is a realistic portrayal of a real person. Luke really exists, he's killed thousands of people in combat.

Under those circumstances, how do you think he should be portrayed?

The way he was portrayed in the prologue of "Mindor".

Here's the thing. I would like to believe people like Luke Skywalker could exist, I really would, but I'm sceptical. If I knew for sure knights like Sir Galahad actually existed, I would have the biggest geek out EVER. I would probably run around the house screaming.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
^ Well, I will say there is a reason why my chief passion is literary knights first, real knights second.

Darth Skuldren wrote:
It depends on how we define "thoroughly shaken." Let's say Luke's portrayal in current Star Wars is a realistic portrayal of a real person. Luke really exists, he's killed thousands of people in combat.

Under those circumstances, how do you think he should be portrayed?

The way he was portrayed in the prologue of "Mindor".

Here's the thing. I would like to believe people like Luke Skywalker could exist, I really would, but I'm sceptical. If I knew for sure knights like Sir Galahad actually existed, I would have the biggest geek out EVER. I would probably run around the house screaming.


There's strong evidence that the Arthurian Legends are at least partially true
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
From the POV of George Lucas nothing happens after episode VI.


He's mentioned a few details, like the Senate coming back.

Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Inception!


If you want to see an Inception-influenced SW novel, there's always Revan.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Arawn_Fenn wrote:
Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
From the POV of George Lucas nothing happens after episode VI.


He's mentioned a few details, like the Senate coming back.

Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Inception!


If you want to see an Inception-influenced SW novel, there's always Revan.


On the first one I say ya, he's acknowledge post-RotJ stuff on occasion. On Revan being influenced by Inception I just don't see that one.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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I was going to cover it in my review, but then I never got around to writing a review. It's about what goes on between Revan and Scourge, and later Revan and Vitiate.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Arawn_Fenn wrote:
I was going to cover it in my review, but then I never got around to writing a review. It's about what goes on between Revan and Scourge, and later Revan and Vitiate.


Might as well go for the explanation here then, I'm curious. I didn't see it when I read it so this could be mind-blowing.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:45 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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If you guys want to go off on a Revan discussion, please do so in the Revan thread that way the Mindor thread can stay on track. Thanks.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
^ Well, I will say there is a reason why my chief passion is literary knights first, real knights second.

Darth Skuldren wrote:
It depends on how we define "thoroughly shaken." Let's say Luke's portrayal in current Star Wars is a realistic portrayal of a real person. Luke really exists, he's killed thousands of people in combat.

Under those circumstances, how do you think he should be portrayed?

The way he was portrayed in the prologue of "Mindor".

Here's the thing. I would like to believe people like Luke Skywalker could exist, I really would, but I'm sceptical. If I knew for sure knights like Sir Galahad actually existed, I would have the biggest geek out EVER. I would probably run around the house screaming.


There's strong evidence that the Arthurian Legends are at least partially true

Oh, I know. I wouldn't run around the house screaming if I found out there was a real knight named Galahad (though I'd still be excited), but only if I knew he was how he was in the legend. Always giving defeated enemies quarter, never striking an unarmed foe, defending widows and orphans, respecting the honour of women etc. If I knew for sure knights like this existed, I would freak out regardless of their names. Wink
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:45 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
^ Well, I will say there is a reason why my chief passion is literary knights first, real knights second.

Darth Skuldren wrote:
It depends on how we define "thoroughly shaken." Let's say Luke's portrayal in current Star Wars is a realistic portrayal of a real person. Luke really exists, he's killed thousands of people in combat.

Under those circumstances, how do you think he should be portrayed?

The way he was portrayed in the prologue of "Mindor".

Here's the thing. I would like to believe people like Luke Skywalker could exist, I really would, but I'm sceptical. If I knew for sure knights like Sir Galahad actually existed, I would have the biggest geek out EVER. I would probably run around the house screaming.


There's strong evidence that the Arthurian Legends are at least partially true

Oh, I know. I wouldn't run around the house screaming if I found out there was a real knight named Galahad (though I'd still be excited), but only if I knew he was how he was in the legend. Always giving defeated enemies quarter, never striking an unarmed foe, defending widows and orphans, respecting the honour of women etc. If I knew for sure knights like this existed, I would freak out regardless of their names. Wink


Well, from a historical standpoint, those things were part of the chivalric code of the middle ages. While a lot of knights were mere brutish thugs, capable only of fighting, they still held themselves to this code (though whether or not they succeeded in always being always so virtuous is up for debate), and I surmise that there would have been knights who really did live up to that standard, all the time.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:24 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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IRL knights were probably most like Mandalorians, not Jedi.

Althought a good deal of them were just pampered Aristocrats that liked to swing a sword around every now and then in a sort of Medieval Fight Club and when it came to actual warfare they stayed home and paid someone else to do the real fighting and dying.

I don't know if there has ever been anyone in history who has personally killed hundreds of people in battle. The guys who do the killing tend to die pretty quickly themselves and history remembers the ones who stood aside and told them what to do, like the knights above. Just think about that during WWII, not all that long ago really, the allies had hundreds of thousands of soldiers die and they were the winners.

It's not like the movies were the hero lives and everyone else drops dead. I'd like to see a war movie where everyone dies, but not heroically in a last stand at the end, just one by one throughout the course of the film. That would be realistic.


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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I'm hesitant to believe all this "medieval knights were bloodthirsty knights were thugs who cared nothing for chivalry", because it seems in line with the medieval Europe-bashing trend our culture seems to be on. Notice that the samurai, another honour-obsessed (I mean that as flattery Wink ) group of warriors, don't seem to be subject to the same level of scrutiny.

I honestly think there were thug knights, but there were also knights who lived and breathed chivalry. If a knight didn't act chivalrously in a certain circumstance, isn't it possible that he tried to be chivalrous but failed rather than immediatley assuming that he cared nothing for chivalry? You can love the idea of not striking an enemy who is down, but it must be awfully tempting when the time actually comes.

As always, I'm a hopeful skeptic. I'm doubtful that a knight like Galahad could have existed, but I hope he did. Nothing would please me more.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Arawn_Fenn
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Reepicheep wrote:
Notice that the samurai, another honour-obsessed (I mean that as flattery Wink ) group of warriors, don't seem to be subject to the same level of scrutiny.


Read Hagakure. A lot of them come off like total a-holes and they seem to kill for very trivial reasons.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Gotta agree, the Samurai are almost exactly the same as European Knights. It's not that they were bloodthirsty and that they had no ideals other than to kill for money, it's just that we have a romantisized idea of them that comes from stories more than history. And even moreso for Samurai in Western eyes.

Look at Richard I who is a brave hero in Robin Hood, but IRL he slaughtered troves of women and children and fought like a coward.

I'm sure that there were many knights that did practice chivalry, but they were probably more the aristocratic dueling clubs types that I talked about. When it come down to warfare, when it's kill or be killed, honor and virtue go out the window pretty fast.

And when I said Mandos, I meant because they were diverse. Some of them are killers, others just want to make a buck and most of them are just farmers and blacksmiths that begrudging put on armor in service of their ideals and culture.


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