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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:15 pm
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Caedus_16 Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4419 Location: Korriban Dog-Poop_Walker wrote: Cadeus you don't seem to get that it goes both ways. You say that you don't want gay people "letting it be all of who they are or slapping me in the face with it" because that crosses your comfort level, and that's fine, you shouldn't have to be. But whether you mean to or not it creates a schism because it means that those people feel like they can't be who they want to be or express themselves in the way that they want to and that crosses their personal comfort line. It's not about overt hatred or hostility, which no one on here seems to prescribe to, but ways that people make others feel shut down by things that we do, often unintentionally, because we fail to understand what other people are feeling. That's what I mean when I say that it goes both ways. Often we "agree to disagree" with others in hopes to maintain some sort of equality of comfort, but that doesn't really address the problem, it's more like ignoring it and hoping it will go away. When you don't allow yourself to see other people as they want to be seen you create a block between yourself and that person. You might say, "we're just two different people" and not see that as a negative thing. In the small scale it's not, but in the large scale it's called "othering". Reducing another person to an "other" that is not like ourselves makes it harder for us to empathize with them because we feel like we don't share a common experience. From there is it only a short step to the way that those people who are othered become marginalized and pushed out of the conversation from the dominant viewpoint that they are not a part of. They feel like they don't matter because they aren't considered and that leads to the continuation of oppression. Everyone does it because that is how we are socialized to deal with people, even people on our "level". It takes an intentional effort to do otherwise. I'm not trying to make people on here feel bad for the way they think or believe, I just want them to consider seeing things from other people's perspective's that they might not have been. It bothers me that you can say we have to allow ourselves to see other people as they want to be seen because you're denying the people here who disagree with it based on religion exactly that. And for the record homosexuals aren't 'other' to me, they're people who made different choices. I keep saying that, much like I keep saying that I think nothing less of people who don't think the way I am, but people keep ignoring me and instead just attacking the fact that I don't agree with it. I can tell you I do, but will that be enough? Homosexuality is, for the most part, gaining acceptance. You aren't ever going to make it 100% accepted, much like not everyone is going to convert to religion. But the thing is that it DOESN'T go both ways, because just because I disagree with it I am now part of the problem. I'm not seeing homosexuals as other people and my big problem with it is that people keep drawing attention to it. If homosexuals let it be all of who they are THEY make it different. I don't see black people, I see people. I don't see homosexuals, I see people. They just live a different lifestyle and its not one that I don't agree with. "Agreeing to disagree" isn't ignoring the problem because I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather saying that its drawing attention to homosexuality is what makes it different. Recently Conan O'Brian married a gay couple on live television. I'm happy they got married, I believe that everyone has the right to. But they drew attention to the fact that it was a GAY marriage. To me it was just a marriage. It was two attention-whores garnering attention, I think the same of straight people who get married on tv. I wouldn't want my marriage televised, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. Marriage is a personal affair between two people, their family, and their friends. For the record though I hope their marriage succeeds and even that they decide to adopt someday and start a family. I'm not 'othering' them at all and you missed my point so entirely that it felt purposeful. It does indeed go both ways, but that means that homosexuals and their supporters must indeed accept that I don't agree with it. THAT is what you're ignoring. _________________ Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:35 pm
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Dog-Poop_Walker Master Joined: 28 Jan 2012 Posts: 686 Location: Official Med. Grove Troublemaker Caedus_16 wrote: I don't see black people, I see people. Not only do you not understand homosexuals, you clearly do not understand people of color either. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to go and find some black people, since you can't see them you might want to ask someone else for directions, and then ask them if their race and the way that other people perceive their race is consequential to them. I'm totally serious.

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:41 pm
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Caedus_16 Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4419 Location: Korriban Dog-Poop_Walker wrote: Caedus_16 wrote: I don't see black people, I see people. Not only do you not understand homosexuals, you clearly do not understand people of color either. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to go and find some black people, since you can't see them you might want to ask someone else for directions, and then ask them if their race and the way that other people perceive their race is consequential to them. I'm totally serious. Again, you're generalizing. Racist and culture appreciation are two different lines of thinking. And you continue to ignore any of what I say. You pick and choose things you can attack without acknowledging anything. I've said I have no hatred towards homosexuals past it being a religious thing and contrary to what you might think I'm entitled to that as much as you are entitled to support it. I won't fight it though, I believe people have the right to be happy. You, on the other hand, are now actually frustrating. You're generalizing. Oh, and on the subject of racism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s EDIT: Actually that video sums up my feelings towards homosexuality as well. The less attention we draw towards it being 'different' the less it will be 'different'. If we want it to be accepted more and have the community be seen less as 'other' then you can't keep drawing lines that make them different. We don't have a 'heterosexual' community, we have the rest of the world. That's the problem, we've drawn lines to separate them and even though we fight to make them accepted we still treat them differently. THAT is the problem. And btw you assume I don't have black friends. I went ahead and called them (because your snide sarcasm aside I can actually see them, don't be that guy here man) and went ahead and asked them. You know what two of three said? They said they didn't want to be seen as any different from anyone else. They find Black History Month insulting and even further they dislike laws that differentiate crime due to racial difference in the people involved, also known as 'hate crimes', because they continue to separate people instead of unite. Maybe YOU need to go find some African-American people and discuss it with them. Oh, and the third one's reply was "My wife and I are about to go to dinner, why do you wanna talk about this stupid s*** right now?" _________________ Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:00 pm
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Salaris Vorn Moderator Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 2039 Location: New York, USA I'm going to just briefly jump in since this is getting a personal. First off Dog I think you are being very unfair towards Caedus. Arguably doing as he does as seeing the person and judging them for who they are inside and not seeing them based on race, gender, or sexual orientation is the best ideal we can hope for. Perhaps it would be a cliche but in essence Caedus's position is the ideal that defined the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s that is famously put in Martin Luther King Jrs. "I have a Dream" speech. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." Back then blacks hoped some day people would see who they are inside, not their race and react to who they are inside not who they are outside. Second Caedus I totally respect your desire to defend yourself and I don't blame you for doing so. However at this point I think it will only lead to an excilation since you've done just about everything you could to defend yourself. So it might be advisible to back out before this goes further. Believe me I know how much it can be frustrating to not defend yourself when you feel you're being unfairly talked to. But I also know that sometimes being silent is the better course of action then saying something. _________________

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:07 pm
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Caedus_16 Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4419 Location: Korriban @Salaris: You're right, I'm bowing out of this specific thread completely. I have been personally insulted despite the fact that apparently everyone is supposed to be allowed their point of view. There is no room in this thread for anyone who disagrees with homosexuality because of religion and despite the fact that there is no hatred or anger it has grown insulting this evening instead of being a discussion. I have not thrown any personal insults at anyone and I have a temper so before I do I am bowing out. This grows childish and it appears there is only one way to look at things in this thread so its purpose of discussion has become irrelevant. @DPW: I have begun to get irked and begun to fly off the handle, and I apologize if I have said anything personally insulting to you. This is probably not a thread you and I should discuss things in. I'll join you in any other thread though, since you joined you've been funny, you've provided discussion points I haven't thought of, and you've generally been great to have here on the forums as a whole. This is just one thread that we aren't going to ever see one another's point of view on and I'm not agreeing to disagree, merely saying that this is just a thread where we shouldn't discuss because it escalates too easily. I'm actually bowing out of this thread and others like it completely. Things get personal between people on opposing sides too quickly and if we aren't careful people will get hurt, people will be angry, and people will leave or drive one another out and I don't want that by any means as I enjoy each and every person here too much to add to any of that should it happen. _________________ Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:43 pm
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Dog-Poop_Walker Master Joined: 28 Jan 2012 Posts: 686 Location: Official Med. Grove Troublemaker Utterly ridiculous. When did I say anything that was personally insulting to Cadeus? The only thing that I said is he doesn't understand some other people's POV. I made one semi-sarcastic comment about religion in general 2 pages ago and didn't say anything else about it or about anyone's personal religious beliefs. The goal of the Civil Rights movement to "judge people...not on the color of their skin." was NOT a call for people to stop talking about race. To refuse to acknowledge that people were and are still judged by the color of their skin is totally opposed to the whole concept. To blame black people, or homosexuals for putting the emphasis on "difference" is to dismiss them and ignore that they are oppressed because of those differences which they did not choose to be so categorized by in the first place. Only accepting those people on terms that the dominant cultural, which has historically oppressed them, deems acceptable and refusing to let them define themselves as they see fit is at best marginalization and at worst active oppression. That was my point. If you find that to be offensive and personally insulting, I don't know what else to say.

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:51 pm
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Caedus_16 Master Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 4419 Location: Korriban When you started saying that I couldn't see black people because I said I saw them as people, not as a different race. That was kind of where it started becoming insulting. I actually agree with you on the fact that these people are oppressed because of these differences, but the fact remains that I am entitled to my religion and that part of that means I disagree with homosexuality. It is not oppressing on my part, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to it happening. But the oppression can stop by blurring the line between different types of people, not defining it further. You say that I must accept people on terms that the terms that they define about themselves, but you refuse to allow me my religious belief on the matter and call me part of the problem. This is my final post in this thread and I put to you that it isn't so black and white and that the the acceptance goes both ways. My families are Irish and Mexican, at points in American history we've both been physically and politically persecuted for "taking jobs" and being here illegally, my own grandfather jumped the fence 3 times before marrying a white woman and getting his green card back in the 1940's. Acceptance has to be all around, and since its become a facet of this argument I will state that I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and I disagree with homosexuality, but I will defend to the death someone's right to be homosexual. You say I don't understand their point of view and you're right, I'm not homosexual so I can't fully. I can only garner what homosexuals I know tell me. But you don't know me, so you can't understand mine either. The answer isn't as easy as you are trying to make it, and you are doing to me for my religious beliefs what you claim I'm doing to homosexuals. Something to think about. Like I said earlier I'll be staying out of threads like this one. It always turns into religious POVs vs other POVs and be it the evolution thread, this thread, or even the racism thread we used to have it always somehow turns into that. There is no place for someone of faith to disagree with homosexuality but support the people who live that lifestyle here, and I back out of these discussions. I'll talk to anyone in any other thread, but I wash my hands of these. _________________ Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:11 am
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Salaris Vorn Moderator Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 2039 Location: New York, USA Dog-Poop_Walker wrote: Utterly ridiculous. When did I say anything that was personally insulting to Cadeus? The only thing that I said is he doesn't understand some other people's POV. I made one semi-sarcastic comment about religion in general 2 pages ago and didn't say anything else about it or about anyone's personal religious beliefs. EDIT asnwer is coming in a PM. Further discussion in public is not appropriate. Quote: The goal of the Civil Rights movement to "judge people...not on the color of their skin." was NOT a call for people to stop talking about race. Quote: To refuse to acknowledge that people were and are still judged by the color of their skin is totally opposed to the whole concept. I never once said that discussion should stop when inequality still exists. My point was that ideally society will reach the point where race is no different then the color of your eyes or hair in how we are judged. Quote: To blame black people, or homosexuals for putting the emphasis on "difference" is to dismiss them and ignore that they are oppressed because of those differences which they did not choose to be so categorized by in the first place. Only accepting those people on terms that the dominant cultural, which has historically oppressed them, deems acceptable and refusing to let them define themselves as they see fit is at best marginalization and at worst active oppression. Curiously I've been discussing this on how it relates to Native Americans and when they opt to define themselves based on how whites have historically defined them it can actually lead them to just self-opressing by giving validity to classifications not of their own creation. I'm curious though if homosexuals DON'T define themsevles as an "other" based on the other categorization given to them by heterosexuals how do they define themselves? I'm not suggesting that they pretend they aren't homosexual. But I am curious where you see the boundary between identifying yourself (general yourself) as homosexual goes from an identity (such as "I am British" or "I am European") to "I am an other and not one of you and this otherness is defined by my exclusion." I don't have any particular answer to this but as you seem to want to define this otherness and emphasize it I'm curious where you are drawing the line. _________________

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:12 am
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Dog-Poop_Walker Master Joined: 28 Jan 2012 Posts: 686 Location: Official Med. Grove Troublemaker Salaris, I'll wait until you read my PM to decide whether or not to reply to your question here in this post.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:01 am
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Old Master Ben Administrator Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 2254 Location: Georgia A general question to the forum public: Would any tears be shed if I shut down the Meditation Grove completely? I have rarely seen the benefits. I appreciate the ability to discuss deeper topics as adults, but on almost every occasion somebody ends up insulted, feelings are hurt, and bonds are shattered. I think the general atmosphere of the forums would be improved if we cut out this section. After all, this is a Star Wars forum. The fact that we have sections for non-Star Wars discussion at all is a bonus, not a necessity. There are plenty of other places to specifically discuss these issues online.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:10 am
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Life Is The Path Master Joined: 10 Sep 2010 Posts: 3408 Location: In a galaxy far, far - No, I'm behind you! Got you! Boo! Well, if it was shut down, wouldn't the topics, as they arise in later possible discussion - simply be discussed in the Cantina? And thus the Grove's closure become unnecessary? _________________ I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:39 am
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comanderbly Master Joined: 29 Feb 2008 Posts: 745 Location: Denver Old Master Ben wrote: A general question to the forum public: Would any tears be shed if I shut down the Meditation Grove completely? I have rarely seen the benefits. I appreciate the ability to discuss deeper topics as adults, but on almost every occasion somebody ends up insulted, feelings are hurt, and bonds are shattered. I think the general atmosphere of the forums would be improved if we cut out this section. After all, this is a Star Wars forum. The fact that we have sections for non-Star Wars discussion at all is a bonus, not a necessity. There are plenty of other places to specifically discuss these issues online. For me I just step back when I start feeling these threads getting personal. I did so during the discussion of abortion. Lets face it these are really tough subjects and hard enough to deal with in real life. There are also plenty of other online places to get involved in these discussions. Personally I respect that people are willing to share their feelings and I try to remember that when I read and respond to comments. I would like to maybe see us shut it down for a cooling off period and maybe come back after a period of time. I think the EUC staff has spent a lot of time and hard work to build up this community and I don't want that hard work to be brushed aside. At the same time I want the community to remain open, not one where we are hyper sensitive and end up putting up false fronts. Besides this is a problem on all forums. My wife's baby center forum gets way uglier - I think we should try and find a way to work it out and not rush to anything.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:20 am
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Reepicheep Master Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 5967 Location: Sailing into the unknown Old Master Ben wrote: A general question to the forum public: Would any tears be shed if I shut down the Meditation Grove completely? I have rarely seen the benefits. I appreciate the ability to discuss deeper topics as adults, but on almost every occasion somebody ends up insulted, feelings are hurt, and bonds are shattered. I think the general atmosphere of the forums would be improved if we cut out this section. After all, this is a Star Wars forum. The fact that we have sections for non-Star Wars discussion at all is a bonus, not a necessity. There are plenty of other places to specifically discuss these issues online. That's a tough question. On one hand, yes, I'd be disappointed if the Med Grove went. I really enjoy discussion on serious subjects, but it's very hard to find the right person to discuss with. I think I'm a fairly cool-headed person and I get frustrated when an argument starts between two people and the conclusion is "let's just talk about lighter things." I wish more people could disagree without arguing or taking shots at each other. Disagreements and discussion are often very enlightening. I'd suggest banning certain members from discussing in the Med Grove, but that might seem draconian. The people doing the discussion is the issue though. I've had some very enjoyable and educational times on here and some really frustrating times, depending on who I was discussing with. It's up to you. I think the Med Grove is worthwhile, but I have to admit it has caused tension where it ordinarily wouldn't exist. _________________ Where sky and water meet, Where the waves grow sweet, Doubt not, Reepicheep, To find all you seek, There is the utter east.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:33 am
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Cerrinea Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410 It would probably be better to shut it down. If it was a true give and take discussion, it would work, but it seldom causes someone on one side of a subject to actually entertain the other side's pov. It just becomes a back and forth of defending each position. Then someone feels they've been insulted, it gets personal and blows up. I suppose you could make certain subjects taboo for discussion. Many boards do that. Personally, I don't think most of these topics belong on a Star Wars discussion board. I've also seen debate forums, that have to adhere to the rules of the debate. But they usually descend into personal attacks and a bunch of hurt feelings so I wouldn't say they're a rousing success either. _________________ Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:39 am
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Hogy Master Joined: 14 Dec 2011 Posts: 659 Location: Nar Shaddaa I would rather see it stay, because the topics aren't allways about politics and religion, but still to deep or serious for The Mos Eisley Cantina. And if things turn out as Life predicts it, The Mos Eisley Cantina just won't be the same.

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