I guess. The Mortis thing may not have been tacked on, but tossing it in the last half of the final book didn't feel climactic to me, it felt tacked on so that was my problem with it. I've stated that I thought it was a good idea handed poorly.

To the Legacy stuff, it still makes no sense to have Krayt appear in Apocalypse. Luke now knows there's another Sith group out there and he isn't just going to ignore them. He revealed himself (something he didn't even do during the Second GCW) and he wasn't really present during the Vong war (despite the fact that he could have had much the same role he had in this) and yes, I know he was created more recently than that but if he reveals himself for Abeloth and not the Vong (who I maintain were a bigger threat) it breaks the flow for me. It was unnecessary, it mucks things up, and it was merely a nod that we didn't need. They went to a lot of work to assure that Vestara warned them to stay hidden and in LotF that all ties to them were hidden with Lumiya and the Twi'lek girl (I forget her name at the moment). So why now, why just toss him in (ya ya, it probably wasn't tossed in but its the feeling it has to me) instead of letting him remain hidden and confident?

Quote:

He revealed himself (something he didn't even do during the Second GCW) and he wasn't really present during the Vong war (despite the fact that he could have had much the same role he had in this) and yes, I know he was created more recently than that but if he reveals himself for Abeloth and not the Vong (who I maintain were a bigger threat) it breaks the flow for me. It was unnecessary, it mucks things up, and it was merely a nod that we didn't need. They went to a lot of work to assure that Vestara warned them to stay hidden and in LotF that all ties to them were hidden with Lumiya and the Twi'lek girl (I forget her name at the moment). So why now, why just toss him in (ya ya, it probably wasn't tossed in but its the feeling it has to me) instead of letting him remain hidden and confident?

It doesn't make any sense for Krayt to reveal himself during the Vong war because he needed to build up his One Sith. It made more sense for him to let the Jedi deplete their ranks defeating the Vong while he hid and built his Sith Order. Then he could take on the Jedi Order and destroy them. He also knew that Vergere and Lumiya were out there and they would be distracting the Jedi. Vergere may have even told him they had a plan to defeat the Vong. My comics are all packed up so I can't reread that whole part of Legacy to verify.

However, it does make sense for Krayt to reveal himself to defeat Abeloth. Abeloth is too big of a threat. Krayt doesn't want to see the galaxy destroyed. He actually thinks his rule of One Sith will preserve the galaxy. He's misguided and wrong, but Krayt is actually (in a weird Sith way) rather altruistic.

Btw, you want to read the Essential Guide to Warfare on Krayt; it's interesting in that it says Vergere is the one who remade his body and taught him the ways of the dark side. It never says she's a Sith; it calls her the mysterious Fosh. It also leaves out any mention of Hett on Tatooine post-TCW, or the confrontation with Obi-Wan. It says, after the Clone Wars, Hett was a smuggler and bounty hunter until he was captured by the Vong. Idk if this was done in the interests of space (Fry did say in the facebook chat yesterday that a lot of stuff was cut due to space constraints), or if there is something of a retcon going on. Time will tell.

Really, any explaination for Abeloth that happened in the last half of the last book would feel kind of "tacked on". Now, depending on how you felt about the Mortis Trilogy, that can impact your view of it. Oddly enough, I hated the shows, but actually liked them a lot more with Denning's explaination.

Was it what I would have picked? No. But it did a good job of explaining things both about those shows, Abeloth, and the Killiks in a way that keeps continuity and limits the number of "omnipotent mysterious figures" there are out there. Which I approve of.





Something I find REALLY interesting is that it was as early as Dark Nest that they had a plan for Jacen falling to the dark side (or at least an inkling for it). Shows that they did some good advanced planning on things.

Also, We were having the debate in some thread a few days ago about whether the Allana part of Jacen's Vision was a Ret-con or not, and I was under the impression it had been around for a while while someone else thought it was new. Interesting to see that that was what they were building towards.

And I disagree that the Vong were the bigger threat, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion. However, it makes more sense because the Vong could be defeated by either the light or dark side of the force (or theoretically even just the military if they'd had enough time). Abeloth could ONLY be defeated by a combination of both.

And personally, I really DO like that Legacy is the future that Jacen was working to prevent. It doesn't mean that all the work that the writers put into that was for naught, its actually really important to show what could have happened, since Jacen's Fall (and the events leading to it) have really consumed 40 books. Think about it, there's been a long-running debate about his moral position since the beginning of Vector Prime when he and Anakin were debating. We go through 19 books of the NJO, the DNT, LOTF and FOTJ before its finally resolved as to what he was doing and why it was important to the galaxy. That's more than we got post ROTJ about the defeat of the empire!! In a way its almost as big a shaping of the future of the galaxy as Luke/Anakin defeating Palpatine.

I'm unsure how I feel about the Mortis thing. That they used the characters from the show, I'm okay with. The books using new information from non-book sources is nothing new, and I suppose, on the whole, it did fit with the way they portrayed Abeloth in the beginning (though I may be remembering incorrectly. It was a while ago). Yet, we know that they're hoping to revisit Mortis in the show, so I worry that whatever they do in that upcoming episode will mess with this. On the whole, I suppose, I was okay with it. I had more of a problem with how Abeloth was taken down. It felt a little anticlimactic and ambiguous (though she could always come back for a final scare, at the end of the book). I'd had the impression that Abeloth was very ethereal and as such not particularly tied to her bodies. Rather, that she was tied, but their destruction, while weakening her, would not destroy her essence. So it would take more than just destroying all of her bodies to kill her.

As for the Krayt thing, I do share some concerns. I think they played their hand early. That he was the Dark Man in Jacen's vision was a great touch, I feel, and I liked that a lot. But, yeah, having him all but declare himself to Luke was not the best thing for future stories. It lends me to believe that there will be more 'epic' stories on the way. Although I'm only at the point where Luke is not fully awake (page 422, I believe), so whether or not he remembers everything is yet to be seen.

And I liked how Jacen was a much better Sith in death than he was in life.

I'd heard that they were going to look at the mortis thing again as well, but had forgotten it until you mentioned it. Hopefully they won'tdo anything too crazy with screwing it up, bu t then again, this IS TCW so that's unlikely to be avoided.

As for Abeloth not being tied to her body and being more etherial ...finish the book. There's a hint of exactly that.

But it wasn't really portrayed in a 'war is hell' kind of way. The first half hour of Saving Private Ryan is brilliant. People are dying unfair and cruel deaths. Characters we barely know, but are rooting for, kick the bucket. And I'm not bored. There's horror all around. It makes you sick in a very good way. In Apocalypse it was a more idealized kind of fighting (though admittedly slightly more gritty than usual), which is fine, but because of that the sheer length of the fighting made it unenjoyable for me. The good guys never die (aside from Bazel Warv) and I never fear they will. Honestly, I was bored.

It's a catch-22. There's fighting and good people die - people ***** (real death threats were sent to both Stackpole and Denning over their character deaths in NJO, and no end of bitching was done when others were killed.

There's fighting and good people don't die - no one has any real fear that they will.

There's no way the authors can win. I think for what they're left with it was a good portrayal overall. There was real risk to all the characters, and while you could probably predict that they wouldn't die, it wasn't impossible (IMHO) that someone could. *shrug*

I don't really know what to say.

I liked the book. That much I've said. I'm more ... surprised by the reactions on here, than anything else. I just don't think things are that bad.

I want one single history, a single timeline. I've said that before and I'll probably say it many more times. It's not perfect, as it is, but on the whole I do think it works. I didn't see anything in Apocalypse that led me to believe that that set up was being done away with or undermined in any way. I can see a fair few ways of how FOTJ can tie in (in plausible ways) to Legacy - and that's something I want.

(Sorry for the poorly handled segue and for the poor quoting) I believe it was Cerrinea who said that since Legacy means anything written between this and that is saddening because it all ends up badly - and that it can't be compared to the OT/PT, because the OT ended on a positive note. I'd like to say that it can be compared to the films, but Legacy did end on a high note. The bad guys were sent running - not wiped out, but they were defeated. Much like the films.

I got the feeling that Apocalypse wasn't simply a way of tying in to the later comics. I loved that. It shows that good stories can be written without simply tying things together, or even undermining stories set later in the timeline - as demonstrated here:

Darth Skuldren wrote:

[spoiler] via the Suvudu interview... Quote: Did you always intend to leave the identity of the Sith Lord who meets Luke Beyond Shadows a mystery? I was thinking he might be White Eyes, the leader of the One Sith that we saw in Inferno and Fury. Troy Denning: I have a very definite idea of who he is, and he’s not White Eyes, I will say that much. But he’s definitely a character who appears in the future of the EU. If I define this too much, then people are going to be out there debating it and arguing about it. I would much prefer to let people come to their own conclusions. Even though I know what my conclusion is, it doesn’t necessarily mean that someone coming to a different conclusion is wrong. When you start getting into the mystic stuff and starting talking about symbols and the spiritual realm, there really never is one right answer. It’s always a matter of interpretation. Is there anything you can tell me about the vision that Ben has on the pinnace toward the end of the novel (Page 415)? It seems to connect pretty explicitly with the events of Dark Horse’s Legacy comics and the emergence of the One Sith. Troy Denning: Visions and symbols are always subject to interpretation and the future is always in motion. I look on a vision as one of many possible things that could happen. What I’m doing there is giving a nod to that continuity, but I’m just a writer, so I don’t know how or even if we’re going to get from where Apocalypse ends to where Legacy begins. That’s a big mystery to me, certainly. And I would be surprised if at this point even the editors and the folks at Lucasfilm had a clear picture of everything that’s going to happen in the next sixty years of EU time between Apocalypse and Legacy. That’s a long, long period of time, and to tell you the truth, I don’t think that anybody really has a firm grasp on how we’re going to get from where we are now to where Legacy begins. And I don’t think they should –– I don’t think anybody should have that all pegged down right now. I think there’s too much fun to be had playing with that time period right now. That’s one of the things that comes up in Apocalypse –– has the future been changed? That’s a question that I don’t think I know the answer to right now, and I’m hoping the readers won’t know the answers to it. I suspect that probably the Lucasfilm people have an answer to that, but they haven’t shared it with me –– and I wouldn’t want them to. I hate spoilers, and that would be the biggest spoiler of all. From what Denning said, it seems quite clear to me that everyone still plans on linking up with the Legacy comics. No where does it say the Legacy comics are no longer canon, or that anyone is thinking about getting rid of them. It does not even hint that the Legacy comics will be changed any. What is revealed in the answers is that Denning sought to undo the way the novels were already tying things down to the Legacy comics. This doesn't change anything. The connection between the two has always been up in the air and undefined. No one knows how we get from point A to B. By undoing some of the precursor events like Jag being Emperor already and Tahiri being a Hand, nothing in Legacy was destroyed or even changed. It just means that Jag isn't going to establish his reign as emperor yet. The Imperial Knights aren't going to be created yet. Ben isn't going to be married and have a kid yet.

However, in another quote - which I forgot to copy, sorry - it states that Troy had several ideas, from the beginning, in the back of his mind. That has me a little worried. It's not clear whether or not he shared these thoughts with the other writers, and I think perhaps this led to the feeling of disjointed storytelling. It reminded me of something that was said in, I believe, last week's Tosche Station podcast - where one host said they feel that Denning has too much influence on the way the EU is going. I now think that may indeed be true. That's my major gripe, I suppose. I recall, at the end of the book, Luke was thinking on how things were descending into deeper chaos. I just didn't get that feeling at all. It felt much like the same old chaos.

So in terms of future (or past, however you look at it) continuity being done away with, I'm not worried.

Now, as for the Mortis/Chosen One thing, I'm also not worried. I liked roughly half of the three TCW episodes. I liked that it dealt with more mystical elements - even if it was, in my opinion, poorly handled. But I liked its inclusion into Apocalypse, and I thought it was written well (though I wish Raynar hadn't become a Joiner, if only because it means we'll probably get at least one more Killik book out of it). And I don't see the Chosen One prophecy being undone - though I can't comment more on that. I had a theory as to how it all fit, but I've forgotten it. But I do remember that it can fit, so I'm not bothered by it!

One last gripe:

Darth_Henning wrote:

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers) how the population of Coruscant/the GA, and the senate itself have once again thrown the Jedi under the bus even though they're the reason people are still alive and not enslaved. I understand that public sentiment might have been an issue after the Empire fell after 20+ years of propaganda. But in the last 20 years the Jedi have been instrumental in saving the galaxy from the Vong, Killiks, Civil war and now Sith. And forgive me, but it wouldn't be all that hard to educate the public on what a Sith is. That isn't a particularly difficult concept. It doesn't really make sense to me, and just is annoying. Similarly, why they can't return to Ossus now is also a question. The recent obsession with Shadu Maau (spelled wrong I know) is beginning to bug me unbelievably.

That annoyed me, too. But I've already elaborated on this earlier. Though I will say that I liked that they've left Coruscant. I like cities, but I like my greenery, too. Hopefully, if we go away from Coruscant, then we'll get more scenes like the one in LOTF which showed how wee Jedi were taught.

In summary, I don't share some of the concerns that have been brought up (though I've yet to read the Denning interviews, so that may change!), while I do agree on some other parts. I could comfortably read books dedicated to nearly all of them.

One of the biggest highlights of the book, though, were the characterisations. Not once did I think that a character had been derailed. Even the characters that got relatively little facetime were done very well, in my opinion.

I think I've forgotten one or two points I was going to mention(, and I'm sure the points I did bring up were poorly written. My apologies). I'm sure it'll come back to me.

On a minor note, the back cover image of Jaina has grown on me. While I still don't see any Leia in her features, she does look less haggard than she did in my initial impression of her. Kind of reminds me of Emmanuelle Vaugier. Not a perfect likeness, I must say, but still.
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I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.