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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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DannikJerriko wrote:
I'm just saying, the Nazis believed they were doing a good thing. In my set of morals they weren't.

(I'm not justifying what the Nazis did)


There are some universal terms of 'good' and 'evil'. Genocide and subjugation of millions is one that is considered wrong universally. Hitler was very religiously based, but much like the Ku Klux Klan he ignored the things he didn't like and twisted those he could for justification. There are those that follow religion closely and those that use it. 'Good' is a relative term to each person, but some things are more widely universal and what the Nazi's did is known universally to be evil.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Caedus_16 wrote:
'Good' is a relative term to each person, but some things are more widely universal and what the Nazi's did is known universally to be evil.


If your speaking of morals, then how can some be universal, yet others not? The only way morals can be universal is if they are independent of man, coming from God. However, if some morals can be changed depending on the person.... then how is God a stable foundation for morals? If I were able to make some things good according to me, then how can you apply a strict definition to anything?

It seems things that we view as moral "grey" areas are in fact categorized wrongly. For example, some cultures value a certain type of clothing or art, etc differently then another. But this is not "moral" relativity, it is simply personal taste. There is no moral value attached to these things.


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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Autobon wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
'Good' is a relative term to each person, but some things are more widely universal and what the Nazi's did is known universally to be evil.


If your speaking of morals, then how can some be universal, yet others not? The only way morals can be universal is if they are independent of man, coming from God. However, if some morals can be changed depending on the person.... then how is God a stable foundation for morals? If I were able to make some things good according to me, then how can you apply a strict definition to anything?

It seems things that we view as moral "grey" areas are in fact categorized wrongly. For example, some cultures value a certain type of clothing or art, etc differently then another. But this is not "moral" relativity, it is simply personal taste. There is no moral value attached to these things.


There are things that ARE universally seen as wrong. Few, but some. Grey areas are not wrong, they exist between cultures. But on the matter of faith it is never so black and white, and grey is actually the wait I've always seen it.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:11 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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I am sorry, your going to have to clarify what you mean by "faith." Also, why is it black and white?

Also, if I am not mistaken, did you say that you were a Christian who believes in the Bible? You don't have to answer that, but I would appreciate you correcting me if I am wrong.


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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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C. S. Lewis (a believer in universal morality) compared the "moral law" to arithmetic laws. Someone can make a mistake in their calculation, but the arithmetical law doesn't change. Just because people disagree on morality, doesn't mean there isn't a moral law.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:34 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I am indeed a Christian, but I'm fairly unorthodox. I believe that the message is more important than anything, the meaning behind the stories. Christian faith usually comes down to right and wrong, but we live in a world where things are sometimes justifiable and sometimes not, where things are looked at as ok under circumstances.

By "faith" I mean the belief in something more than yourself.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Christian faith usually comes down to right and wrong, but we live in a world where things are sometimes justifiable and sometimes not, where things are looked at as ok under circumstances.


You mean like choosing the lesser of two evils? If so, I am so with you here. Lying is wrong, but if a Nazi knocks on your door (Godwin's Law ftw Very Happy ), it's less evil than handing over the Jews you're hiding in your basement. That was one of the mistakes the Pharisees made, if memory serves, taking a relatively minor law over a major one.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
Christian faith usually comes down to right and wrong, but we live in a world where things are sometimes justifiable and sometimes not, where things are looked at as ok under circumstances.


You mean like choosing the lesser of two evils? If so, I am so with you here. Lying is wrong, but if a Nazi knocks on your door (Godwin's Law ftw Very Happy ), it's less evil than handing over the Jews you're hiding in your basement. That was one of the mistakes the Pharisees made, if memory serves, taking a relatively minor law over a major one.


The Pharisees used to count the individual seeds in their granary and give an exact ten percent as tithe because they took the rules that literally. Rules are meant to be followed to the best of ability, not obsessively.

My statement could indeed apply like you said, but it could also apply to situations in life. I don't agree with abortion, but if a woman becomes pregnant through rape then I would not only concede that its a good time for it, I'd support it. If a man kills someone who is invading his home and hurting his family I would see that as justified to. The ten commandments say not to kill, but its useful and necessary sometimes due to human nature. That's why I prefer to take meaning behind rules instead of rules at face value, otherwise I'm just blindly following outdated logic.
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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:51 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Caedus_16 wrote:
The Pharisees used to count the individual seeds in their granary and give an exact ten percent as tithe because they took the rules that literally. Rules are meant to be followed to the best of ability, not obsessively.


Jesus did not take issue with the Pharisees because they took the rules of tithe so literally. The actual verse is this:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law; justice and mercy and faithfulness"

Jesus takes issue with them not because they follow a rule, but because they are so obsessed with one rule yet do not follow a command of more importance. They care nothing for justice, they show no mercy to others. They are hypocrites, liars, and like to show off in public.

Jesus even tells the crowds he is preaching at to listen to the Pharisees when they speak of Moses's law, for they are correct. He warns them though, to not by hypocrites and just talk about the law as they do, but to actually do it as well.

Quote:
The ten commandments say not to kill, but its useful and necessary sometimes due to human nature. That's why I prefer to take meaning behind rules instead of rules at face value, otherwise I'm just blindly following outdated logic.


The ten commandments, are actually written to the Jews and the commandment in question speaks of murder. Of course there are situations in which you must kill and it would be justifiable. Your example of abortion and home invasion for example are grouped together, even though they should not be.

If you believe abortion is murder and wrong, then it would not matter in what situation you find yourself in. You don't murder an innocent person to alleviate the lesser crime of rape. On the other hand, if someone is to defend himself when a criminal is beating his family, it is both biblically and societally acceptable. Your are acting to save the life of others not end it. The criminal is also not innocent, guilty of harming another human maybe even to the point of death.

Quote:
outdated logic


This would actually make a good separate thread. We always hear stuff like "the bible is 2000 years old and outdated, etc." It would be interesting to discuss how little/much human behavior and philosophical intellect has actually changed. My view is that it has not. Anyone that takes time to read the bible will find almost all viewpoints of today represented. There were the atheists (or those like them), the political buffs, the holier-then-thou religious elite, the common everyday folk, etc.


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 PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Autobon wrote:

Jesus did not take issue with the Pharisees because they took the rules of tithe so literally. The actual verse is this:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law; justice and mercy and faithfulness"

Jesus takes issue with them not because they follow a rule, but because they are so obsessed with one rule yet do not follow a command of more importance. They are hypocrites, liars, and like to show off in public.

Jesus even tells the crowds he is preaching at to listen to the Pharisees when they speak of Moses's law, for they are correct. He warns them though, to not by hypocrites and just talk about the law as they do, but to actually do it as well.


This is actually the point I was trying to make. I brought that up in mockery of the pharisees. They did things for attention, not God.

Quote:
The ten commandments, are actually written to the Jews and the commandment in question speaks of murder. Of course there are situations in which you must kill and it would be justifiable. Your example of abortion and home invasion for example are grouped together, even though they should not be.

If you believe abortion is murder and wrong, then it would not matter in what situation you find yourself in. You don't murder an innocent person to alleviate the lesser crime of rape. On the other hand, if someone is to defend himself when a criminal is beating his family, it is both biblically and societally acceptable. Your are acting to save the life of others not end it. The criminal is also not innocent, guilty of harming another human maybe even to the point of death.


You are...very much taking me out of context here. Most Christian faiths actually still follow the ten commandments for one thing. Another is that I grouped abortion and home invasion together not to say they are in any way similar, but examples where there IS no biblical law and where there is. The grey areas like that are defined by our conscience. Many people believe that abortion is wrong because the child shouldn't have to suffer for the mistakes of the parents, but in the case of rape its kind of difficult to blame the mother for having sex and not using protection. I listed this with home invasion not to say they are ANYWHERE NEAR THE SAME but to highlight what people use as 'justifiable circumstances" with regard towards commandments or laws. This factors into my view of faith in the Bible and in one god only via my actions. I do what I believe is right according to my faith, but some things just aren't covered in the bible. Abortion is one and that's why I used it as an example.

I do not actually believe the Bible is outdated, but it just didn't deal with some issues we have today. So in THAT aspect alone its outdated.
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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For anyone interested in the supposed conflict between faith and science, I highly recommend this site:
http://biologos.org/

There are some really good essays and videos on there that bring a lot of intelligence to the debate.
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:52 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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For those who read it, which books of the Bible are your favourites?

Some of mine:

The Gospels: This is the default answer, but it's the default answer for a reason. These are the most important and often the most enjoyable of the books. I'm not sure which is my favourite. Matthew seems to be the most definitive, but I like the uniqueness of John.

Genesis: Classic. There are many good stories and lessons in here.

Judges: Such an under-rated book. I don't know if it's the best if you're trying to derive morals or spiritual insight, but man these stories are epic. The judges were like Ancient Israeli superheroes. Razz

Samuel, Kings, Chronicles: Some people find these books boring, but I really enjoy them. I like history and these are probably the most straight-up historical books in the Old Testament. There's also a lot of good stories in these.

Isaiah: Typically, I don't find the writng in the Bible to be particularly beautiful but some of the imagery in Isaiah is really nice. There's a pretty even distribution between God the Just and God the Merciful and the Messiah prophecies are neat.

James: This book is very practical and easy to understand.

EDIT: I forgot one.

Jonah: I recently read a literary/scholarly book about Jonah and my respect for it (as well as knowledge of the humour in it) grew a lot. Apparently Jonah was written as a parody/satire of prophets and the attitude of the Jews towards other nations. The author of Jonah must have dodged a few stones in his day.
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Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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That's a really hard decision, but I think Genesis, Romans and James are in my top favorites. Esther, Job and Revelation are also really good. One of my favorite verses of all time is:

Revelation 12:7 - "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels."

Can you just picture war in heaven? This verse gives me chills. Smile
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:27 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Revelation. I love the strange imagery it describes. I mean it actually describes creatures in heaven that are covered in eyeballs. It's almost like a Star Wars scene.
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 PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Haha, Revelation is pretty cool. Trouble is I always have to separate it from Harold Camping, picket signs etc. before I can properly enjoy it.
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To find all you seek,
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