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Fandom Apocalypse?
 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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My Star Wars fandom is at an all-time low right now. It's not that I don't enjoy Star Wars (I still love the OT and many, many EU works), but I find myself very unexcited about future releases. My fandom has been on a low swing for a little while now, but I think it was Apocalypse that really pushed me into low gear. It wasn't so much the book itself, but it really put the current state of Star Wars in perspective for me.

I've always defended Star Wars from people who called it a "cash cow", but I'm beginning to really see their point of view. At least on Lucas's part. The continuity is a mess, and it will forseeably get worse in the future. Lucas just doesn't care about continuity. And the "It's his universe argument" doesn't work, because he doesn't even seem to care about continuity within his own universe, much less the EU.Whether it be small things like giving a small ship a cloaking device (and even waving off the objection from Filoni) or it's huge things like Mortis, it seems clear he just doesn't care. I think Mortis is the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars (yes, worse than Jar Jar). It's just that bad. I can't reconcile everything I know about Star Wars with Mortis. Star Wars is now working against itself.

Also, the two most hotly anticipated books this year were disappointments to me. I know that more obscure books are often much better, but is this what I really want? Scrounging the good little stories and ignoring the mess that the larger story is?

I don't want to be a downer, but I want to be honest. It's very possible there's a peak on the other side of this valley, who knows? I'll keep reading the books (if, for no other reason than that I can keep visiting this site and have things to talk about), and we'll see what happens, but I'm just not feeling it right now.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I don't really have any good feelings about Star Wars right now either. I just re-read NJO and I remember when there was a lot of effort being thrown into a huge, coherant story within an amazing universe. I've become less impressed with the bigger series as of late and while I think there is a lot of potential in the standalones and duologies they've proposed TCW has kind of ruined my ability to care. You're right, Lucas is forcing absolute crap sometimes. Did Maul need to come back? No. Was it handled well? Yes. Is it still an absolute mistake? Yes. The show is nothing more than an excuse for Lucas to keep sucking Star Wars dry. He once complained that he'd never make a sequel trilogy because people hate him for his more recent Star Wars contributions, so why would he make more movies? I wish he would apply that to the rest of the Star Wars universe and bow out completely. When people within your own circle beg for you to hold onto continuity and you just toss their objections aside it should be obvious that something is wrong, but Lucas doesn't care. He can't even maintain the saga with any continuity, its been clear since Episode III came out that he never actually cared. And its getting to where we can no longer do things like ignore TCW in continuity (citing it as Lucas's while we have ours) because Del Rey is trying to force it into canon for Him. I believe I may be taking a break from spending money on Star Wars novels (Scoundrels aside because that looks awesome. Its losing its flavor for me and while I'll continue to buy the comics regularly the novels may be getting a break from me till I can get them on amazon.com for a few cents each. You're right Reep.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:53 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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I still like the theory that the real Lucas disappeared after RotJ and this one is just a doppelganger. It's the only explanation that makes sense. It's sad, really. I used to have a lot of respect for him, but it's gone now. Sad

Caedus_16 wrote:
I believe I may be taking a break from spending money on Star Wars novels (Scoundrels aside because that looks awesome. Its losing its flavor for me and while I'll continue to buy the comics regularly the novels may be getting a break from me till I can get them on amazon.com for a few cents each. You're right Reep.

I'm lucky that way. My library buys nearly all of the books, so I don't have to worry about buying them.

Caedus_16 wrote:
And its getting to where we can no longer do things like ignore TCW in continuity (citing it as Lucas's while we have ours) because Del Rey is trying to force it into canon for Him.

Exactly. After seeing Mortis, I decided to just pretend it never happened and hope that it would go away or at least that it doesn't affect anything outside of TCW. Looks like there's no escape from it.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:03 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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I can't use the library. When I was younger I started buying and even now I've slowly been replacing paperbacks with hardcovers if they came out that way. I have a huge and gorgeous collection and I want to continue it so unfortunately for me I have to keep collecting. But not for awhile, not with all the stuff that's been going on with Star Wars.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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I'm happy with Star Wars at the moment. Maybe it's because I focus only on the post movie materials and Zahn, but I'm loving it. I think Fate of the Jedi was a nice comeback from the mess that was LOTF and left several doors open for future writers. The fact they are going to stop these epic stories and go back to small single writer stories is a huge plus for me as well.


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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:31 pm Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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I think it's a pretty safe bet to say they've got surprises they're saving for CVI. I'm looking forward to Scourge. Scoundrels... I'm not sure. Maybe. I've still got a massive backlog going back twenty years (still haven't read TTT etc) so I'm safe for now. As for modern stuff, I want to get Crimson Empire III and one other thing that I can't remember.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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DannikJerriko wrote:
I think it's a pretty safe bet to say they've got surprises they're saving for CVI. I'm looking forward to Scourge. Scoundrels... I'm not sure. Maybe. I've still got a massive backlog going back twenty years (still haven't read TTT etc) so I'm safe for now. As for modern stuff, I want to get Crimson Empire III and one other thing that I can't remember.


Crimson Empire III was great, I just finished it the other day. Not as good as the first arc but it was good. Also try Dawn of the Jedi or Knights of the Old Republic if you're looking for SW comics to get into, I have the feeling that I'll be more into those than the novels for a little while.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  DannikJerriko
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Caedus_16 wrote:
DannikJerriko wrote:
I think it's a pretty safe bet to say they've got surprises they're saving for CVI. I'm looking forward to Scourge. Scoundrels... I'm not sure. Maybe. I've still got a massive backlog going back twenty years (still haven't read TTT etc) so I'm safe for now. As for modern stuff, I want to get Crimson Empire III and one other thing that I can't remember.


Crimson Empire III was great, I just finished it the other day. Not as good as the first arc but it was good. Also try Dawn of the Jedi or Knights of the Old Republic if you're looking for SW comics to get into, I have the feeling that I'll be more into those than the novels for a little while.


I'm waiting for the KOTOR Omnibus/es (Omnibi?) aand the DotJ TPB.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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It seems like most of the complaints stem from the gigantic cluster-**** that is the Clone Wars.

Well that's not exactly new, and I'm not surprised people are pissed at Lucas for a lot of those things. Most of the small things can be explianed away (cloking device on a small ship for example, is a simple ret-con in that it wasn't actually a cloking device, but other sensor-bafling technology), but the larger ones like Maul and Mortis are annoying.

That said, just because Mortis is canon and was worked into FOTJ to explain Abeloth, does not mean that it has to become a central part of the mythology. In fact, it can be explored in a more coherent way than Lucas did in order to give us some idea of what the Celestials actually are since they've been mentioned for several years now, and then promptly allowed to fade into the background.

Its also quite possible to explain them as just a more powerful version of the Jedi-vs-Sith conflict. The light and the dark. Sure they affect the galaxy every now and then, but they don't shape the force.

Sure, its annoying, but I think that people giving up on the EU is a bit excessive (to say the least). Sure if you're losing interest, take a break and come back if/when you want to. But I think if you really annalyze each work that has come out recently, and ignore TCW, you'd find that the quality is equivalent to the Bantum era.


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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Darth_Henning wrote:
you'd find that the quality is equivalent to the Bantum era.


This is something that really gets me when it comes to some of the complaints. The quality is about equal, and the Bantum era has several glaring mistakes and misteps, but the problems today seem to be easier to find because they are producing far more product now then back then. The books are also largely more limited then what they used to be. Outside of the commando books and Zahn's post A New Hope books, the current books are mainly about Jedi/Sith. Which can get old when dealing with this many books. One of the reasons, I'm looking forward to Mercy Kill and praying it's a huge hit. Maybe then we'll get more non-jedi books.


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 PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Werehunter wrote:

This is something that really gets me when it comes to some of the complaints. The quality is about equal, and the Bantum era has several glaring mistakes and misteps,


And when you think about it, there always will be when you get this many authors, working on this many projects, in this many forms of media.

Sooner or later there will be mistakes. Some are easy to fix, some are harder. Some shouldn't have been made (cough TCW), and some are unavoidable.

Lets be honest with ourselves. Nothing Star Wars is ever going down in history as great literature. Fun? yes. Engaging? yes. But it has its place.

Even the most well read of any of the fans, if asked to write novels in this ever-changing universe would manage to make many of the same mistakes we gripe about. Myself included.


Werehunter wrote:
but the problems today seem to be easier to find because they are producing far more product now then back then. The books are also largely more limited then what they used to be. Outside of the commando books and Zahn's post A New Hope books, the current books are mainly about Jedi/Sith. Which can get old when dealing with this many books. One of the reasons, I'm looking forward to Mercy Kill and praying it's a huge hit. Maybe then we'll get more non-jedi books.


This I think really is more of the problem. There's a bit too narrow of a focus lately. Admittedly, LOTF/FOTJ that was unavoidable with the direction they took, but with TOR coming online as a major publishing era, DOTJ starting up, etc, diversity is needed.

I think we'll see more non-jedi-vs-sith in the coming contract, but I think you may have hit it on the head why things may feel stale at the current time.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:42 am Reply with quote  
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  Corellias Dream
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I've been asking for a break from the Jedi/Sith storylines for a while, plus the big Alter The Destiny Of The Galaxy stuff. Sure, fighting the Empire was about changing the galaxy, but it wasn't done in massive series. There were standalones, and shorter series, which linked together as part of the larger picture, but entire galactic, government changing wars were not fought over 1 year and nine books. Getting from the Battle of Yarvin to signing the treaty with the Imperial Remnant took 20 years !

Del Ray had said they are moving back towards singles and short series, which is a relief. Our original characters, like Luke, Leia and Wedge spent 20 years fighting for peace and a stable government. Then the Vong invasion happened and there was a new government. Then Jacen decided only he knew how to manage things, and there was another civil war and yet another shift of government. The older characters must have felt they were in a time loop - all their best efforts seemed to have achieved almost nothing. It's depressing, watching characters you care about having the rug pulled out from under their feet. And in less than 100 years down the line, there's the Legacy stories, with the galaxy in disarray again. I think Wedge would be proud to know that there's still a Rogue Squadron in dark times, but depressed at the thought that's it's still needed in the galaxy.

Obviously, an adventure series like Star Wars needs action and drama, but I'd be happy for it to be scaled down a bit, and to feel like our long-suffering heroes are actually accomplishing something that lasts more than five years.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Werehunter wrote:
The fact they are going to stop these epic stories and go back to small single writer stories is a huge plus for me as well.

That has me optimistic as well.

Darth_Henning wrote:
That said, just because Mortis is canon and was worked into FOTJ to explain Abeloth, does not mean that it has to become a central part of the mythology. In fact, it can be explored in a more coherent way than Lucas did in order to give us some idea of what the Celestials actually are since they've been mentioned for several years now, and then promptly allowed to fade into the background.

This goes back to what I said in the opening post. Sure, I can read other stories and ignore the fact that the main story is messed up. But is that what I really want to do?

Werehunter wrote:
This is something that really gets me when it comes to some of the complaints. The quality is about equal, and the Bantum era has several glaring mistakes and misteps, but the problems today seem to be easier to find because they are producing far more product now then back then.

Just to be clear, I much prefer Del Rey to Bantam (except their very recent stuff).

Darth_Henning wrote:
Lets be honest with ourselves. Nothing Star Wars is ever going down in history as great literature. Fun? yes. Engaging? yes. But it has its place.

Maybe so, but I still expect good literature. I still expect it to make coherent sense.

Darth_Henning wrote:
Sure, its annoying, but I think that people giving up on the EU is a bit excessive (to say the least). Sure if you're losing interest, take a break and come back if/when you want to.

Honestly, if not for this site, I probably would take a break. I'm enjoying other things more than Star Wars right now (again, only the very new stuff. I still love the OT and much of the EU) and I wouldn't mind dedicating more time to them. The Cantina has become a part of my life, and I wouldn't want to give it up. I could still come to this site, of course, but I wouldn't have nearly as much to talk about. Like it or not I'm here to stay.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


Last edited by Reepicheep on Fri May 11, 2012 9:51 am; edited 3 times in total


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 PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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...RotS was a piece of great literature. Well written, excellent characterization, came up with plausible fixes for Lucas's plot-holes...
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 PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:55 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
...RotS was a piece of great literature. Well written, excellent characterization, came up with plausible fixes for Lucas's plot-holes...

Yeah, agreed.

My faith in "the classics" has been shaken recently. I recently read a book called Gargantua and Pantagruel, and apparently it is one of the Great Books of the Western World, but I thought it was junk. I've read so many "low-brow" books that have way more worth than G&P did.
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Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


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