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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:13 am
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Taral-DLOS EUC Staff Joined: 23 Nov 2010 Posts: 1240 Location: Ontario, Canada Dog-Poop_Walker wrote: TD, I don't understand the point of this question? The answer seems to be pretty forgone depending on your position, with really only two options to choose from, and so does not represent a real intellectual hurdle or difficult moral choice. If you oppose abortion you would try to convince her to do otherwise. If you were unable to, supposing that the strength of your conviction doesn't entail you try to forcible stop her, then you would certainly end your relationship with this person. If you supported abortion, or believed it is her choice alone, then you would accept it and go on as before. That's fair. I was just hoping to challenge some of the positions of apparent-zero-tolerance toward abortion in cases when it is not your choice at all. But I may have gone about it the wrong way. _________________ It was the year of fire… the year of destruction… the year we took back what was ours. It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy. It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed. The year is 2261. The place: Babylon 5.

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:54 pm
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Reepicheep Master Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 5963 Location: Sailing into the unknown I would do everything I could to stop her. _________________ Where sky and water meet, Where the waves grow sweet, Doubt not, Reepicheep, To find all you seek, There is the utter east.

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:31 pm
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Cerrinea Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410 I have kind of the opposite story. When I became pregnant with one of my sons my husband tried to force me to have an abortion. He badgered me constantly to the point where it really was mentally and emotionally abusive. The thing is there was no reason for an abortion other than his selfishness. We were financially really very stable, and we weren't exactly immature kids either. I dug my heels in and refused, eventually he stopped and became supportive (or as supportive as he's capable of being), and he truly loves this son. obviously, I've never told this son about it because that would be very cruel and I love my son too much to do that. I will just say that the marriage eventually ended in divorce. I guess my point is that whatever you believe ultimately the choice is in the woman's hands. It's her decision. If a man doesn't want to be faced with an unplanned pregnancy then maybe he should take responsibility to ensure a pregnancy does not happen. _________________ Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:23 pm
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Mara Jade Skywalker Master Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 5359 Location: Beyond Shadows Cerrinea wrote: If a man doesn't want to be faced with an unplanned pregnancy then maybe he should take responsibility to ensure a pregnancy does not happen. See, I feel this is where Pro-Life activists (including myself) get a lot of their passion from. We feel like abortion, in many cases, is just an answer to irresponsibility. A woman got pregnant and she or the father (or both) doesn't want the responsibility of dealing with a child. Often enough, I would imagine, it does not have to do with financial instability or immaturity or health. It has to do with a simple "solution" to a "problem". Someone doesn't want the responsibility of a child, so they get rid of it. I do believe that a baby is "alive" at conception. Whatever scientific terms you want to give it, that's fine. I don't pretend to know. But I suppose I see it as the possibility of a child. The human beings (the mother and the father) no longer have anything to do with it. If all goes well, the process will carry itself forward until a child is born into the real world. Even if you believe the baby is not "alive" at the abortion stage, you are still denying a child a chance at life! As I said, if all goes well, that creature in the womb will become a living, breathing child. And yet that possibility is denied because of irresponsibility. For myself, that hurts. That seems so selfish. It's just...something I react harshly to. It's hard to explain, but I really don't understand such a mindset. _________________ "It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:00 pm
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Dancelittleewok EUC Staff Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 1119 Location: Kansas Quote: I guess my point is that whatever you believe ultimately the choice is in the woman's hands. It's her decision. If a man doesn't want to be faced with an unplanned pregnancy then maybe he should take responsibility to ensure a pregnancy does not happen. Ideally it should be up to the couple, especially in a marriage. The child shares both the mother and the father's DNA. Women, too, can ensure a pregnancy doesn't happen by taking the Pill or using other contraceptives. _________________ Observation: Life would be cooler if everyone spoke like HK-47. Communications Coordinator at EUCantina.

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:18 pm
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Cerrinea Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410 Dancelittleewok wrote: Ideally it should be up to the couple, especially in a marriage. The child shares both the mother and the father's DNA. Women, too, can ensure a pregnancy doesn't happen by taking the Pill or using other contraceptives. Well, a baby always shares the DNA of both parents whether they're married or not. The difference with marriage is that there's suppose to be a level of intimacy and trust where pressuring the pregnant spouse to get an abortion is a betrayal of the marriage bond. In an ideal world birth control would be 100% effective, but it isn't. That's why if neither partner wants an unplanned pregnancy they should both use birth control methods. One of them is bound not to fail. The advantage of male birth control is that it's readily available without a doctor's visit or prescription, and it's much cheaper. We've all seen this past week (unless you've been living under a rock) what a contentious issue insurance coverage for women's birth control is. Also the question specifically addressed a man's reaction so I was giving a specific man's reaction from my personal experience. _________________ Roqoo Depot co-founder. Last edited by Cerrinea on Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:41 pm
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illogicalRogue2 Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 2845 Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm.. Mara Jade Skywalker wrote: Cerrinea wrote: If a man doesn't want to be faced with an unplanned pregnancy then maybe he should take responsibility to ensure a pregnancy does not happen. See, I feel this is where Pro-Life activists (including myself) get a lot of their passion from. We feel like abortion, in many cases, is just an answer to irresponsibility. A woman got pregnant and she or the father (or both) doesn't want the responsibility of dealing with a child. Often enough, I would imagine, it does not have to do with financial instability or immaturity or health. It has to do with a simple "solution" to a "problem". Someone doesn't want the responsibility of a child, so they get rid of it. I do believe that a baby is "alive" at conception. Whatever scientific terms you want to give it, that's fine. I don't pretend to know. But I suppose I see it as the possibility of a child. The human beings (the mother and the father) no longer have anything to do with it. If all goes well, the process will carry itself forward until a child is born into the real world. Even if you believe the baby is not "alive" at the abortion stage, you are still denying a child a chance at life! As I said, if all goes well, that creature in the womb will become a living, breathing child. And yet that possibility is denied because of irresponsibility. For myself, that hurts. That seems so selfish. It's just...something I react harshly to. It's hard to explain, but I really don't understand such a mindset. See and for me this is the prime real-estate of the youth got raped. So the 10 year old who was raped gets to be irresponsible for committing the abortion that alows her to remain a child for a little longer. Vs having to grow up right then and there due to some rapist. (though I do get where you are coming from I still can't go 100% Pro-Life.) I think my issue with Pro-Life is for many it's not just about the pro life, but about telling others how they should live their lives based on someone else's beliefs. That's why I'll always be Pro-Life through Pro-Choice. If Pro-Lifers are worried they can't educate people well enough I don't see making more laws helping. _________________ -Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass. - -To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself. - -Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:18 am
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Salaris Vorn Moderator Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 2039 Location: New York, USA Just on this idea of responsible vs. irrisponsible and going back to Taral's comments on Plan B: From what Taral said (and I'll go with that since I have little knowledge beyond knowing it exists) I assume that it is capable of both preventing fertilization from occurring and can also terminate a newly fertilized egg. If this is correct then that leads to my next question: In the event of a condom breaking or realizing she forgot to take her pills is a couple being responsible if the woman takes Plan B? Specifically since the woman probably won't know if the egg is fertilized or not at this early stage is she being responsible by taking final steps to prevent fertilization from occurring or is she being irresponsible for unintentionally/unknowingly terminating a fertilized egg in an effort to avoid having to require an abortion (the elective kind being debated here)? Not trying to pick on anyone here but I'm 1) curious how Plan B works and (assuming it can terminate a fertilized egg) 2) curious how both sides view this use given that the woman is not necessarily aware that the egg has already been fertilized _________________

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:57 am
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Cerrinea Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410 Plan B will not work if a pregnancy already exists. It only prevents pregnancy from occurring. RU-486 (Mifiprex) does end a very early pregnancy. _________________ Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:08 am
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Taral-DLOS EUC Staff Joined: 23 Nov 2010 Posts: 1240 Location: Ontario, Canada Cerrinea wrote: Plan B will not work if a pregnancy already exists. It only prevents pregnancy from occurring. RU-486 (Mifiprex) does end a very early pregnancy. There's an intermediate step worth considering. Plan B does not end pregnancy, but it can stop a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall. PlanB.ca wrote: Plan B is simple to use And remember the sooner you take it the more effective it is. plan B is two pills which you take together. If taken within 72 hours, it prevents pregnancy by doing one of three things: Temporarily stops the release of an egg from the ovary Prevents fertilization Prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus plan B is not an abortion pill—if you take plan B you will not be terminating a pregnancy. If you are already pregnant and take plan B, there’s no evidence that plan B will harm you or the fetus _________________ It was the year of fire… the year of destruction… the year we took back what was ours. It was the year of rebirth… the year of great sadness… the year of pain… and the year of joy. It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed. The year is 2261. The place: Babylon 5.

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:46 am
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Cerrinea Master Joined: 09 Jun 2009 Posts: 1410 Quote: There's an intermediate step worth considering. Plan B does not end pregnancy, but it can stop a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall. Which is also what some IUDs may do. So if you're (general you) partner uses an IUD for birth control, is that a problem too? _________________ Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:46 pm
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Salaris Vorn Moderator Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 2039 Location: New York, USA Thanks for the correction/specification on what Plan B does. Very interesting facts, carry on! _________________

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:49 pm
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Autobon Master Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 751 Location: Seattle, Washington Unfortunately too common in China - http://ca.news.yahoo.com/china-probes-forced-abortion-case-amid-uproar-070412976.html Interestingly, this is one of the big issues that Chen Guangcheng (blind lawyer who escaped to US embassy a couple months back) fought to expose.

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:29 pm
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Hogy Master Joined: 14 Dec 2011 Posts: 659 Location: Nar Shaddaa ^^^ Not only forced abortions (like that isn't enough), but even killing of infant girls has been happening (too lazy to find source, just google female infanticide or something, it should bring plenty of stuff to read). This one child rule must have sounded good on the paper, but it brought one of the most brutal outcomes in the history of mankind imo. And look what they have now. Now that the one child rule generation has grown up. Too many males and not enough females. Heck I'm neither anthropologist or psychologist, but I know this can't end well.

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