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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:48 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Mad Wook wrote:

And I think that people that would completely dismiss the EU as "fanfic" are few and far between.

That may be true but I think only 1 person has any consequence to what IR2 was saying, George Lucas. He said, "And as far as the guy who started it all seems to be concerned, the EU might as well just be glorified fanfic.... "


Yes, and it saddens me. Yes I get excited when GL works on TCW but I do so wish he would be that excited about the EU Saga that sprung from his creation. Sometimes it seems like it's "to hard" to worry about making it fit, and thus the status quo is who cares. But I care.

I know Erin asked in the continuity thread if I'd (generalized) be happy if the EU was called an AU and left to do its own thing- yes- I've said before I'd even be happy with a GL signature series. I am just tired of the back and forth of one continuity with 2 universes. It's confusing and the EU suffers. I am still curious what happened to Alpha.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:57 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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The saddest thing is that this divide kills off fans joy.

And it makes sense in that regard to focus on new younger fans cause the older ones all die eventually so we got to keep that interest fresh and since they don't know squat yet there is no issue with these fans for another 5-10 years. Not until the stories they enjoyed and grew up with stop counting in one spot or another. Once their first blood has been drawn.

Plus as a community side of this. Yeah it's fun to be a mitchy mitcherton about it. I can't change it, all I can do is voice my irritation in a fractured franchise that is thriving dispite the lose of long term fans. And the loner I remain in the fandom the older I feel. There seem to be less and less of my age group as fans. But a lot of I was a fans until George.... blah blah fans. I mean it too. I have a lot of friends who just won't read a book anymore because of it all. And I see threads like this and people not jazzed to rush out and get a book. And I really think at the end of the day it's because of this divide. The divide of the passion.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I'm just fine with Star Wars. I can understand the frustration, but I remember in 1999 when I said, "How could George do this? He's ruining Star Wars!" and now I just think back to 1992, before some of our members here were even born, and people said, "How could George do this? He's ruining Star Wars!" and back to before I was born in 1980 when people said, "How could George do this? He's ruining Star Wars!"

Well Ok, maybe not then, but at least in 1983 some were.

To me Star Wars today is a series of books, comics and video games that are pretty entertaining for the most part, even if not entirely. The Clone Wars is a kids TV show that doesn't fit with everything else, but it's pretty good for what it is. And people can watch the crappy CGI blu-rays if they want to, and I'll watch the OT on VHS the way I remember it and want to see it.

Those movies are what started it and the fans are what keep it going and I don't see a big chance that anything is going to be able to take those away.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
and thus the status quo is who cares. But I care.

I am still curious what happened to Alpha.


I care too, brother. I've been doin this way too long and my book collection is way too big to stop now.


As far as Alpha goes, I'm sure it could be a pretty easy retcon but I have a feeling it will be more convoluted than it needs to be. When TCW is over, the dust settles, and they write a new Chronology, it may be that they'll say that was Rex the whole time.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Werehunter wrote:
There has been Continuity errors since Heir to the Empire came out. When you are dealing with a product line that spans movies, novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games with dozens, if not hundreds, of people working on the story there are bound to be continuity errors. If problems like this bothers you, then you shouldn't read serial fiction. Just as if you are a creator and don't want to risk other people's work changing yours, then you shouldn't work in serial fiction.

I get what you're saying, but the changes nowadays aren't honest mistakes. With those I can grit my teeth and swallow. What I'm seeing is George Lucas nowing full well that he's messing up continuity and doing it anyway.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
Werehunter wrote:
There has been Continuity errors since Heir to the Empire came out. When you are dealing with a product line that spans movies, novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games with dozens, if not hundreds, of people working on the story there are bound to be continuity errors. If problems like this bothers you, then you shouldn't read serial fiction. Just as if you are a creator and don't want to risk other people's work changing yours, then you shouldn't work in serial fiction.

I get what you're saying, but the changes nowadays aren't honest mistakes. With those I can grit my teeth and swallow. What I'm seeing is George Lucas nowing full well that he's messing up continuity and doing it anyway.


Exactly. Lucas could not give less of a care about fans or the universe that grew past him. There have been difficulties between all the mediums and Lucas himself has admitted that it bothers him the level of hatred he gets for it, but he's also stated that he doesn't care and he's gonna do what he's gonna do whether we like it or not. Its that level of cavalier, open, uncaring nonsense that makes me wonder if he's truly a storyteller (which he isn't anymore, the prequels and the level of stuff he pushes for TCW says so) or rather just a businessman. He's an entrepreneur, nothing more. He used to be a brilliant man who knew his way around story structure and such, but ever since the ewoks he's gotten more and more into making money and not really caring about how people react.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:01 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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Reepicheep wrote:
Werehunter wrote:
There has been Continuity errors since Heir to the Empire came out. When you are dealing with a product line that spans movies, novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games with dozens, if not hundreds, of people working on the story there are bound to be continuity errors. If problems like this bothers you, then you shouldn't read serial fiction. Just as if you are a creator and don't want to risk other people's work changing yours, then you shouldn't work in serial fiction.

I get what you're saying, but the changes nowadays aren't honest mistakes. With those I can grit my teeth and swallow. What I'm seeing is George Lucas nowing full well that he's messing up continuity and doing it anyway.


Which is also extremely common in serial fiction. All it takes is one person thinking their view point is better then the rest and that person convinces the others. In this case, the person who thinks his vision is better is the one with the final say.


DC just completely revamped their entire universe, more then one universe in fact, because they felt it was the superior way to go. Over at Marvel comics, Brian Bendis has greatly changed the history of several characters because he has the influence at the company to do so.

The same goes with most serial fiction. They'll constantly shake up their word as the people in charge feel there needs to be a change. Sometimes it's because they want a new direction and other times it's because the people in charge think it was better how it used to be and do what they can to put it back.

While I hate it when it happens, I've also learned not to let it get to me. I love it when stories build upon one another, it's why I love serial fiction. And I'm disappointed when the creators take a giant step backwards. But in the end, if I enjoy the product that's what I'm going to care about.

Going back to the DC and Marvel examples I gave. In the end, I dislike most of what DC is putting out but overall enjoy what Brian Bendis has done at Marvel despite the destruction of several of my favorite characters.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Werehunter wrote:
Reepicheep wrote:
Werehunter wrote:
There has been Continuity errors since Heir to the Empire came out. When you are dealing with a product line that spans movies, novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games with dozens, if not hundreds, of people working on the story there are bound to be continuity errors. If problems like this bothers you, then you shouldn't read serial fiction. Just as if you are a creator and don't want to risk other people's work changing yours, then you shouldn't work in serial fiction.

I get what you're saying, but the changes nowadays aren't honest mistakes. With those I can grit my teeth and swallow. What I'm seeing is George Lucas nowing full well that he's messing up continuity and doing it anyway.


Which is also extremely common in serial fiction.

Star Wars is the only type of serial fiction that I follow closely. Before I got into the EU, I remember not being sure if I wanted to be bothered with it because it seemed like a cash in. When I actually read some of it for myself, I was surprised (and impressed!) at the level of unity. One of the initial attractions of the EU for me is slipping away. Had Star Wars always worked like Marvel and DC (and if I had still gotten into it), it wouldn't be so much of a big deal but it didn't. Sure there were continuity issues, but they were pretty easy to ignore or write off and it was regarded as one big universe.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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It's funny that you say that Reep, because Marvel comics did do Star Wars and the stories are not only so ridiculous that they have almost been entirely pushed out of canon (one of the most memorable characters was a human-sized green bunny), but it also isn't considered a part of the Marvel universe.

It's odd that people say GL is doing it for the money. He did ESB because he was contractually obligated to. He did ROTJ either because he wanted the money or because he wanted to give the finger to the world for forcing him to do a sequel to star wars in the first place that he hated doing, by making a horrible movie and make everyone hate star wars "haha. Boba Fett dies ridiculously in the first five minutes, Luke is Leia's brother, darth vader is some crusty white dude, Lando blows up the death star which was built with the exact same weakness as the first one, yoda dies, and the empire is defeated by teddy bears. This'll show em!" and surprisingly everyone loved it.

He's got a kajillion dollars. he doesn't need the money he just has a hard on for Anakin and since he rightly knows everyone will buy his stupid crap, he thinks that they do too.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Actually he's pretty much admitted that the inclusion of the ewoks were for youth marketing. It was done to draw in more kids and to be able to sell cuddly toys. As to why he made RotJ why the heck would he have left ESB on a cliffhanger if he only 'decided' to make the third movie as a giant middle finger? And he wasn't contractually obligated to make ESB, he was begged by the studio and he enjoyed it so much that he wanted to return to it but he got a new director to get a more professional film. It was only after finishing that one and getting burnt out that he hated SW.

As to his kajillions ya he's got em but who wouldn't want more? The man is a marketer, not a film-maker or storyteller anymore.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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yeah, I guess. Most of that post was a joke, but I just don't think his primary motivation is simply to make money. Would he have made more or less money if he wasn't directly involved in TCW? He pretty much has nothing to do with the rest of the EU, and that suits him fine.

I also wonder which one makes more money. TCW definitely gets more from associated merchandise, but how do just the money from a season of the show and DVD sales compare to the SW novels released during that same timeframe? For a video game I'd think it would be pretty even. If you compare it against all of the EU then it might even come close to merchandise sales. I have no idea.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Ok now you have ME curious. I need to look up the numbers tomorrow. I would imagine that at the moment TCW is the cash cow, the EU literature is the respectable profit, and the video games are ridiculously big for awhile then taper off.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:

Yes, and it saddens me. Yes I get excited when GL works on TCW but I do so wish he would be that excited about the EU Saga that sprung from his creation. Sometimes it seems like it's "to hard" to worry about making it fit, and thus the status quo is who cares. But I care.


I care, but I know that it's out of my control. That knowledge soothes my frustration.

Quote:
I know Erin asked in the continuity thread if I'd (generalized) be happy if the EU was called an AU and left to do its own thing- yes- I've said before I'd even be happy with a GL signature series. I am just tired of the back and forth of one continuity with 2 universes. It's confusing and the EU suffers. I am still curious what happened to Alpha.


We've known for years the levels of canon, but it's kinda disturbing that Filoni admitted there are two universes. The EU has been marketed as a continuation of the films, that everything is ONE universe. If there are really two universes, is it ethical to market otherwise? Is it fair to tell fans otherwise?

But I don't put the continuity problems at George Lucas's feet. He receives the most flack because of TCW - and he's the face of Star Wars. There are multiple people involved in publishing EU. Should we blame the authors? Sue Rostoni? Jennifer Heddle? The marketing team?

Quote:
The saddest thing is that this divide kills off fans joy.

Fandom, by nature, is divisive. I can't recall any major issue that received universal consensus.

BUT...

The industry does listen to its fans. Industry people, like Del Rey, do read fan sites and interact daily with fans. After years of asking, a new X-wing novel is FINALLY coming out. Smile

Looking at the gripes in this thread, are you feeling alienated or not heard as a fan?

P.S. Who is Alpha?
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:15 am Reply with quote  
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  SidiousThrawn
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Alpha Squadron from the Republic/Imperial Commando series. When Traviss left, the audiance was left hanging what happened to Alpha.

I've been reading the comments from some of the folks on rebel scum, to them, the continuity is what they amke it to be not what LFL, Filoni or anyone else tells them it is.

Which for beloved characters like Chewie, Mara and others make since. I still can't believe they killed off Ackbar.
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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Dancelittleewok wrote:

We've known for years the levels of canon, but it's kinda disturbing that Filoni admitted there are two universes. The EU has been marketed as a continuation of the films, that everything is ONE universe. If there are really two universes, is it ethical to market otherwise? Is it fair to tell fans otherwise?

Nope. That's why I've stopped paying for EU stuff.


Dancelittleewok wrote:

The industry does listen to its fans. Industry people, like Del Rey, do read fan sites and interact daily with fans. After years of asking, a new X-wing novel is FINALLY coming out. Smile

It's encouraging to know that the gripes of little old me might come to the attention of the big wigs in charge of Star Wars. Smile
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