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Palpatine vs Windu (who won if either?)
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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JediHero wrote:
So did Sidious know Anakin was on his way? Mace Windu had him cornered and beat and he looked like he was afraid that is until Anakin arrives.


Well, he speaks to Anakin telepathically when Anakin is in the Jedi High Council chamber. If he's capable of that sort of communication over distance he's presumably capable of being aware of Anakin is as it would require him to know where Anakin is to send the message unless it's some sort of broadcast.

I would think that Palpatine spent the prior thirteen years specifically "attuning" himself to Anakin through their relationship so that he was able to read Anakin and his situation as clearly as possible. He knew Vader was in danger on Mustafar after his battle with Yoda, for instance. I'd imagine he also could read Anakin's emotional state and used that for maximum leverage and malleability in his interactions with him.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Bane
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Windu definitely won, but then Skywalker had to come and interfere.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:58 am Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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Sidious was just toying with Mace all along. If he took out Kit, Agen, and Saesee that fast, he could have taken them all. It was all a little show for Anakin's benefit.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Mad Wook wrote:
If he took out Kit, Agen, and Saesee that fast


Arguably Palps had the tactical advantage in that situation which plays to any lone swordsman's advantage if they have enough skill. Those kind of close quarters pretty much limits you to only the most basic fighting stance and moves. More agressive, athletic or acrobatic fighting styles could very well have just resulted in Jedi getting in the way of other Jedi.

I will grant Palps did a good job at manipulating Kit and Mace so that they couldn't easly take a swing at Palps without risking hitting their ally. So Palps did have decent skill.

This being said that is where I think Palps being a skilled fighter ends and pure incompetence by the Jedi begins. Palps has a noticable "windup" that should give even the most novice swordsman enough of a warning that he is going to open with a thrust and block accordingly. For one reason or another the Jedi was oblivious to this. The second Jedi Palps takes out made the mistake of 1) being in a poor defensive stance to begin with 2) upon seeing a threat he winds up to deliver his own attack (and then hesitates!) which took him out of what little defensive stance he was in. He pretty much asked Palps to kill him.

I do think towards the end Palps let Mace win for the purpose of putting on a show for Anakin. That being said there is no reason in the film to believe Mace couldn't have eventually won anyway.

(for record I'm a fencer and have learned Japanese swordfighting as well)
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
This being said that is where I think Palps being a skilled fighter ends and pure incompetence by the Jedi begins.


Saying that those 4 council members were incompetent would imply inconsistent writing on the creators part. The Jedi get portrayed as superheroes in a lot of other scenes. I think it was meant to show just how powerful Palpatine was.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:14 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Mad Wook wrote:
Salaris Vorn wrote:
This being said that is where I think Palps being a skilled fighter ends and pure incompetence by the Jedi begins.


Saying that those 4 council members were incompetent would imply inconsistent writing on the creators part. The Jedi get portrayed as superheroes in a lot of other scenes.


Granted. But that doesn't explain why two of them make very basic rookie mistakes that Knights shouldn't make much less Masters. Two Jedi die because of errors on their part, not because Palps was better. If Palps had failed to kill them he would have come across as not being particularly skilled in saber fighting for not being able to press home his advantage when the Jedi made mistakes.

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I think it was meant to show just how powerful Palpatine was.


I agree this was the intent. To me this is not the only thing that comes across. To me the scene highlights 1) the Jedi die because of making stupid mistakes 2) their numbers in such close quarters compromise their ability to use advanced saber forms, a disadvantage Palps successfully exploits 3) Palps has good situational awareness and knows how to make the most of opportunities.

However, analyzing the situation and manipulating it to maximum advantage is another form of power. So Palps still comes across as powerful, just not in the raw physical/Force power sense.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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Well as far as analyzing that particular scene goes, it doesn't really speak of Jedi stupidity or Palpatine's power, it speaks more of poor writing and directing.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Mad Wook wrote:
Well as far as analyzing that particular scene goes, it doesn't really speak of Jedi stupidity or Palpatine's power, it speaks more of poor writing and directing.


Very very true.
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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I'd say the novel nailed it though. And Fisto's head on the desk was just icing on the cake.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Bane
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Mad Wook wrote:
Sidious was just toying with Mace all along. If he took out Kit, Agen, and Saesee that fast, he could have taken them all. It was all a little show for Anakin's benefit.


I don't think that is the case. Windu is one of the most powerful Jedi ever. It seem like kit Agen and Saesee were just doing their work sloppily. That is my explanation for why that happened
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 PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:46 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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I reiterate.....
Mad Wook wrote:
Saying that those 4 council members were incompetent would imply inconsistent writing on the creators part. The Jedi get portrayed as superheroes in a lot of other scenes. I think it was meant to show just how powerful Palpatine was.


And besides, we all know Yoda is more powerful than Mace, and Sidious beat Yoda.


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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:42 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
Mad Wook wrote:
If he took out Kit, Agen, and Saesee that fast


Arguably Palps had the tactical advantage in that situation which plays to any lone swordsman's advantage if they have enough skill. Those kind of close quarters pretty much limits you to only the most basic fighting stance and moves. More agressive, athletic or acrobatic fighting styles could very well have just resulted in Jedi getting in the way of other Jedi.

I will grant Palps did a good job at manipulating Kit and Mace so that they couldn't easly take a swing at Palps without risking hitting their ally. So Palps did have decent skill.

This being said that is where I think Palps being a skilled fighter ends and pure incompetence by the Jedi begins. Palps has a noticable "windup" that should give even the most novice swordsman enough of a warning that he is going to open with a thrust and block accordingly. For one reason or another the Jedi was oblivious to this. The second Jedi Palps takes out made the mistake of 1) being in a poor defensive stance to begin with 2) upon seeing a threat he winds up to deliver his own attack (and then hesitates!) which took him out of what little defensive stance he was in. He pretty much asked Palps to kill him.

I do think towards the end Palps let Mace win for the purpose of putting on a show for Anakin. That being said there is no reason in the film to believe Mace couldn't have eventually won anyway.

(for record I'm a fencer and have learned Japanese swordfighting as well)


*Adopts explanation and raises it as my own, calling it Fluffy*

That's a very good explanation, and is better than it being a poorly done scene. Unfortunately, that is true, so I'm wondering if Nick Gillard intentionally put those thoughts into it to make up for the deficits of the writing, or if it was entirely unintentional.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:47 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Mad Wook wrote:
I reiterate.....
Mad Wook wrote:
Saying that those 4 council members were incompetent would imply inconsistent writing on the creators part. The Jedi get portrayed as superheroes in a lot of other scenes. I think it was meant to show just how powerful Palpatine was.


And besides, we all know Yoda is more powerful than Mace, and Sidious beat Yoda.


Yet Anakin was considered far better than Obi Wan, yet Old Master Ben managed to take him out. Mace was certainly very powerful, but not as powerful as Yoda, yes, but I think the reason behind his success and Yoda's failure is their mindsets. Mace, as we know, was an adept, a master, of Vaapad. He would have probably been in a mindset similar to Palpatine's, would have been anticipating the darkness, and was, for lack of a better phrase, 'living in the present'. Yoda, however (as we learn from the book) was anticipating fighting a Sith of the old order, not one of the new. He was blind to this, and recognised too late that he was blind, and thus lost.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:31 am Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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I think that while Yoda was the more powerful Jedi, Mace was the better swordfighter. While Palpatine beat Yoda with sheer power, Mace beat Palpatine with skill.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Life Is The Path wrote:

Yet Anakin was considered far better than Obi Wan, yet Old Master Ben managed to take him out. Mace was certainly very powerful, but not as powerful as Yoda, yes, but I think the reason behind his success and Yoda's failure is their mindsets. Mace, as we know, was an adept, a master, of Vaapad. He would have probably been in a mindset similar to Palpatine's, would have been anticipating the darkness, and was, for lack of a better phrase, 'living in the present'. Yoda, however (as we learn from the book) was anticipating fighting a Sith of the old order, not one of the new. He was blind to this, and recognised too late that he was blind, and thus lost.


This is a very good point and one of the reasons I think the Jedi having a moment of incompetancy is plausible. For example, they could have been so sure of their numbers that they let their guard down or weren't at full combat alert until it was too late.

skimming Saesee and Agen's wookieepedia entries I had some additional thoughts that I'd add to my original analysis: the book apparently attributes Saesee's death to being distracted by trying to read Palp's mind. His saber style seems to be heavily influenced by using his telepathic abilities. So it is plausible that he had "over specialized" his saber form to the point that he was entirely dependant on reading the mind of an opponent and couldn't easily adapt his style to a situation where he was completely incapable of reading his enemy's intentions. (this would explain his obvious hesitation in the movie)

Agen is a bit more difficult to reconcile. However, it sounds like he prefered the more athletic forms. In that regard it is possible his failure to block was a case of instintively preparing to block in his preferred form but he checked himself realzing the close quarters would result in him parrying into a fellow Jedi. The second or so of hesitation as his brain shifted gears to another stance more appropriate to the situation is what gets him killed. In this case Palps could have known that if he had instantly attacked Agen would have instinctively parried in his preferred stance. However, by windingup Palps knew he would draw Agen off guard by giving Agen enough time to realize the danger a parry with his preferred form posed to his allies and in the second or so Agen spends shifting his mindset to a new stance Palps gets his opportunity to strike.

Incompetancy? Maybe. Lack of adequate preperation and/or not being flexible enough to adapt to the situation (similar to what Life noted about Yoda)? Definetely.
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