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| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
| Yeah, why would they trust someone who saved them? |
Well, let's see:
1) First, he had to save them because he betrayed them to the Emperor.
2) They thought he died, given that he was already on the Empire's side once how do they know it's not another trick? (Like in the Dark Side ending with the Dark Apprentice doing the same thing)
3) When Rahm Kota returns in the Rogue Shadow, they don't even trust Rahm Kota because he had been captured so they believe it could be an Imperial trick. They're paranoid.
4) Starkiller doesn't even have any interest in being part of the Rebel Alliance and his primary concern throughout the entire story is to find Juno, and his aiding the Rebel Alliance is because their motives overlap. Only once he finds her does he choose to stick around, but only because she's in the Rebel Alliance.
5) Starkiller: If his claims are true, then Kamino is much more of a threat than any ordinary stormtrooper factory.
Kota: Maybe. But the Alliance couldn't pull off an attack like this without your help.
Starkiller: They'll have to. They wouldn't trust me to lead anything yet, anyway.
Kota: I would.
Starkiller: The Alliance is more than just you and your militia, Kota.
| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
| I don't understand this sentence. |
"Until they knew for certain where Starkiller had come from, would the Rebel Alliance ever really believe in him? Would Juno herself, had she not seen him with her own eyes?
"Bail Organa's words came back to her. 'I don't trust that kind of power.' He, at least, would be especially difficult to convince."
"'I'll encourage him to keep a low profile,' she said, confident that Vader and Kota himself would give the Alliance leadership plenty to argue about for now."
The Rebel leaders don't even know that Starkiller is alive at the end of the game because his existence would just be another point of contention with perhaps some trusting him and others like Bail Organa not. The only reason the Rebels attacked Kamino was because Kota furnished the data that Starkiller provided and didn't reveal that Starkiller provided it, nor did he reveal that Starkiller exists. How does Vader predict this? Vader didn't plan anything, he just wanted his apprentice back.
| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
| "Sith apprentices tend to turn on their masters" does not mean that a Sith can never appear to place his life in an apprentice's hands. At this point the Dark Apprentice has no incentive to kill Vader, and it's not at all clear that the "perfect clone" is a true Sith apprentice anyway ( Rule of Two, anyone? ) or that he could so easily escape Vader's control. |
So, since he's not a true Sith apprentice because Vader is, he wouldn't betray Vader the same way that Vader is planning to betray Sidious. Those thoughts won't exist until he's a legit Sith apprentice.
| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
| Why can't Vader have more than one puppet? Staarkiller and the "perfect clone" serve different purposes. The "perfect clone" is not useful as a Rebel Alliance infiltration tool in the way that Staarkiller is. |
I agree, why can't Vader have more than one puppet? Except when Starkiller finally gives into the dark side and plans to kill Vader, he has his other puppet kill him instead of just preventing the death blow. It makes no sense. If Vader is trying to turn the protagonist back into his service, why have him killed the minute he turns? It's like if in Return of the Jedi when Luke goes nuts and starts wailing on Vader, Palpatine just impales Luke from behind without trying to rein him in. Yeah...
| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
 Because he didn't kill all of them? This is a non-point. |
So he kills the ones that look like healthy human beings (as seen in "Distant Thunder" if we take it for truth), but keeps the ones that are mutated and deformed. Makes sense.
| Arawn_Fenn wrote: |
| It may be "obvious" to you, but that just means you've made up your mind. Don't the novels ( if not the first game ) establish that the original died? |
Yes, it's obvious to me because rather than looking for the story to make sense either from an "all-inclusive continuity" standpoint or "make Vader look badass and salvage the fact that he's beaten" standpoint, I look for the story to actually make some sort of sense. Which it doesn't. At all. Unless you accept that the Dark Apprentice is a deus ex machina that they came up with that doesn't factor into the story except in its non-canon version.
The first novel has absolutely no "omniscient" declaration that Starkiller is dead. Starkiller himself witnesses Vader declaring him dead. He never learned Qui-Gon's technique. How does he do that?
The second novel doesn't have the Dark Apprentice at all, except Starkiller has a Force vision of being killed by a clone. Kota is convinced he's not a clone, and takes him to a Khommite cloner that tells him:
A) Khommite: The Khommites have been cloning themselves for a thousand years and they've got it down to a fine art. It defines their entire culture.
B) Khommite: You need to know that cloning won't make you immortal, either.
Starkiller: Why not?
Khommite: They've never managed to fix the memory problem. Not even the Khommites. Each clone they make is a new person -- one based to a very large degree on the original, but still one that has its own identiy, its own memories, its own weird quirks. They don't think they're the same person, just different versions of the same template. And that's not immortality. Sorry.
C) Khommite: You see, the other thing no one has ever managed to to copy is Force sensitivity. Worse than that , it actually gets in the way of the cloning process. We don't know how. It just does. The Khommites are aware of the problem and they do everything they can to stamp it out. That's right: they weed out (sic) Force sensitivity. Can you imagine? That's how big the problem is.
Starkiller: What would happen if you tried to clone someone Force sensitive anyway?
Khommite: Terrible things. Insanity. Psychosis. Suicidal tendencies. Who wants a crazy Force-sensitive running amok in your lab? No one.
It totally makes sense to me that Starkiller is a clone and Sean Williams put this scene in the novel for absolutely no reason because Vader discovered an entirely new type of cloning that the Khommites couldn't figure out in a thousand years of it. He didn't write the scene at all to tell the audience indirectly that Starkiller is actually the original.
The Force Unleashed 2 already has a weak story. I don't understand the desire to completely ruin it by eliminating any sort of logic in it because "Distant Thunder" is totally canon even though no one ever said it was and it leads into the non-canon dark side ending, but we've got to have an all-inclusive continuity!
I don't know, I mean, having read the novel, it seems pretty clear to me that Sean Williams wrote it with quite a bit of indirect references to the fact that Starkiller is, in fact, the original. But I guess maybe since we all worship at the shrine of SW continuity where authorial intent is irrelevant (Vergere was a Sith candidate!), all those things that Sean Williams put in the novel that contradict the idea that Starkiller is a clone don't matter because SW continuity -- by virtue of Distant Thunder -- has decided that he is a clone, so now it's just really messy because against all odds, Vader somehow cloned Starkiller despite all the reasons we're told it couldn't happen. Gee I love SW continuity, it's so great for storytelling.
And I really don't want to hear about Bevel Lemelisk because that was Palpatine, and if it was relevant to Starkiller being a clone or not, then Sean Williams really wouldn't have put the scene with the Khommite in the novel to contradict it. But then again, SW continuity! Where we ignore what the author put in the story to inform us on the plot, and look to other stories that are completely irrelevant!
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