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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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One of my local papers ran this article on New York handgun control laws: http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2012/07/handgun_laws.html

I thought it was pretty relevant to our discussion here because I think it outlines laws that would allow people to own guns but would have a detailed enough process that might catch would-be shooters who try to get guns legally. Apply it to all types of firearms and I think we would be taking a major step in the right direction where guns aren't banned but they are less likely to be easily acquired by shooters through legal means. Yes you now have to wait longer to own your gun but I suspect that if you need the gun right this second and can't wait you may not be intending to use it for legal activities anyway.

I think the reason assault rifles become such a prominent part in discussions after events like this is because assault rifles are different in some ways than say a shotgun. Namely assault rifles were invented for the sole purpose of taking human life in war. Shotguns were used for hunting as well as for military uses, pistols have a history being employed in a range of uses from military to honor duels. Assault rifles were always designed for the single purpose of killing a human in armed conflict. They did not evolve as the next generation of hunting rifles to put food on the table, nor did they evolve as the 20th century preferred means of settling disputes over honor, nor for any other purpose outside of use by the military.I think it is the military context of the origin of the assault rifle that gets it all this attention.

As others have said assault rifles are not responsible for the majority of gun related deaths and there may be an undue focus on assault rifles. This is just my two cents on why I think the discussion often focuses on assault rifles over other types of firearms.
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:30 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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I think it was Skuls who asked for statistics. Here's what I found after a quick search: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm. It's primarily about homicides in the home, but it gives a good insight into the stats (interestingly, and perhaps not surprisingly, more murders - with guns - are committed by friends and family members, rather than during a robbery or other type of assault by unknown parties. The relevant numbers are around the middle.

Also, I haven't had a chance to check all of this, but it looks interesting. Has pretty charts ... http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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One thing about the New York law I don't like is this...

Quote:
They must provide four character references who must personally sign the application (and be "well acquainted" with the applicant), and who are then interviewed by the police, who also conduct secondary interviews.


It sounds good, but who are you actually going to find whose willing to sacrifice some of their time so they can be interviewed by the police so you can get a handgun permit? I'd also be a little worried about the ultimate decision being made by a judge (that's mentioned later in the article) because what if you get an anti-gun judge who just refuses everybody?

I think simply interviewing the person who wants the permit would be good. If the character references could be done over the phone, that might work as well. Still, you would probably want to reduce the character references to two, or three at most. If a judge is making the final approval, there should be an appeals process, and I think it would be a good idea to have the NRA involved just to make sure the system isn't being abused as an anti-gun tool.
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 PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
One thing about the New York law I don't like is this...

Quote:
They must provide four character references who must personally sign the application (and be "well acquainted" with the applicant), and who are then interviewed by the police, who also conduct secondary interviews.


It sounds good, but who are you actually going to find whose willing to sacrifice some of their time so they can be interviewed by the police so you can get a handgun permit? I'd also be a little worried about the ultimate decision being made by a judge (that's mentioned later in the article) because what if you get an anti-gun judge who just refuses everybody?


Based on the fact that gun linceses are handed out in New York I should imagine people are able to find friends who are willing to take the time so I don't see the time issue as a valid reason to dismiss that requirement. I needed to find someone to take the time to teach me to drive before taking my test and it never crossed anyones mind that it was an unacceptable use of time to require my parents or a friend to spend weeks or months teaching me how to drive. Therefore I see no reason why we can't ask someone to spend a few hours interviewing with the police so their friend/family member can own a handgun.

As for the judge I can see your concerns there but I think unfortunately that's just a risk we take with our entire judicial system. How do you know that every environmental case isn't going to be dismissed by this judge purely because of their personal opinion? Is it right that this can happen? No. Would guns be the only case where this might happen? Definetely not. As you said an appeals process would be good and I would agree with that as there isn't a good reason to say guns can't have an appeal but all other cases can.

Quote:
If a judge is making the final approval, there should be an appeals process, and I think it would be a good idea to have the NRA involved just to make sure the system isn't being abused as an anti-gun tool.


I think the NRA should stay out and so should anti-gun organizations period. Lobbies are one of the biggest problems in the country and I think allowing a pro-gun (or anti-gun) organization to become involved in the legal system itself would benefit no one. Special interest groups always seek to further their personal interests, nothing more nothing less (I'm saying this broadly, not just targeting the NRA and I think this applies to all organizations that lobby for or against laws). Now that isn't to say these groups are inherrently bad all of the time (the NAACP would be an example of an organization that has done good things), but that doesn't change that they are always pursuing a certain agenda regardless of whether or not it is the position of the majority of the community.

Think of it this way if someone said it would be good to have anti-gun organization involved in the weakest gun control laws to make sure the system isn't being abused as a pro-gun tool and the NRA wasn't specifically asked to be included in an equal capacity wouldn't you at least suspect that the anti-gun organization would only use their exclusive position to further their own agenda without any opposition?

EDIT: I should just clarify that I'm not for banning guns outright but I do think we need stricter gun control laws nation wide, the above mentioned New York law being an example.
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Another point: if assault rifles are banned (FYI: this happens to be one of the proposals I like least), what would happen to people who already own one? Will it be like the last ban and all the existing ownerships get grandfathered in? If so, keep in mind a ban only eliminates the new purchase of assault rifles that have not been labeled pre-ban. Pre-ban guns could still be bought and sold.
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 PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:01 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I guess this is the first new gun law in the wake of Aurora. U.S. Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) and U.S. Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) introduced bills, S. 3458 and H.R. 6241, aka “Stop Online Ammunition Sales Act.” The bill has four key points:

1.) A federal licensing requirement for ammunition sellers

2.) Recordkeeping on all ammunition sales

3.) Reporting of all sales of more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition to anyone without a federal firearms license within five consecutive business days

4.) A photo identification requirement for all non-licensees buying ammunition

Looking over this bill, I fail to see how this will help at all. The LA Times had an interesting quote about the bill...

Quote:
Buyers would be required to present photo IDs, a requirement that the bill’s sponsors say would effectively ban the online or mail-order purchase of ammunition by civilians.


...it's interesting because it's nonsense (unless I'm missing something here). Just take your driver's license, scan it with your computer and email the online store the image, and presto, you can now buy ammo online. I know of one online site that already does this and the process isn't hard at all. But then, maybe when they say "present a photo ID" they mean in person. Still, if it's as simple as showing the UPS man a photo ID, it wouldn't change anything.

That aside, the reporting of any purchase over a 1,000 rounds within 5 consecutive days is going to be a paperwork nightmare. I think some people fail to realize how much ammunition is sold every year and just how much people buy. Plus there's the little issue of tax payers' money being used to account for all this new reporting. I imagine someone is going to have to go through all the data, right? I mean it wouldn't make any sense to do all this reporting if no one was going to look at it.

And what sort of action are they going to take when someone without an FFL buys over a 1,000 rounds of ammunition?

Lots of questions and the only answers I'm seeing is political talking points. If they really want the measure to have any weight, the purchase of large amounts of ammunition has to be tied to other purchases, like firearms and firearm related equipment. They need to be able to correlate and tag anyone who buys ammo, a gun, and tactical gear over a short period of time. Even that data is next to useless, but if they could combine it with other flags like strange behavior reported about the individual or suspicious internet searches, they might get somewhere.

At the end of the day, they'd still need someone making phone calls to follow up on the person of interest. Right now, we simply do not have the money to implement such a system.

Edit: There's another proposal but it hasn't gotten any traction yet. Senators Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), and others have proposed an amendment on banning high capacity magazines.

Quote:
The amendment would ban import, possession, and transfer of magazines that accept (or could be readily converted to accept) more than 10 rounds and that are manufactured after the enactment of the amendment. The ban only excludes tubular magazines designed to accept .22-caliber ammunition.


Note that preban magazines would be excluded (you could still own them but you won't be able to sell or transfer them).
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"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:42 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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not a law but news of another shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin. 6 people were killed before the gunman was shot to death by police: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcPikKmRlOGV3KsuPrMGLaERZtBA?docId=49cb7d4da9984229949aa92c488636ff

In light of the fact that we had another shooting so shortly after the theater shooting how do you guys think this will stack up with calls for stronger gun laws?
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Here's a new one, with 3D printers, you can now print guns: http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-10/fyi-it-legal-3-d-print-handgun

I foresee a lot more new laws in order to cover this.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:09 pm Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
Here's a new one, with 3D printers, you can now print guns: http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-10/fyi-it-legal-3-d-print-handgun

I foresee a lot more new laws in order to cover this.


3D printers are nuts! Goodness, it's such a crazy technology. How long before they replace construction workers when it comes to building homes and stuff?


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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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VileZero wrote:
How long before they replace construction workers when it comes to building homes and stuff?


When you're not required to sell your family off in order to afford one... Sad


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Hmm...maybe we need a topic for 3D printers. Imagine a large scale 3D printer that could print buildings?
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"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  VileZero
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
Hmm...maybe we need a topic for 3D printers. Imagine a large scale 3D printer that could print buildings?


I was just thinking the same thing. Because there's also a lot of really awesome 3D printed stuff out there. And frankly... I have no idea how it works. But I do love discussing futuristic technology like that...


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Wait by "3-D printers" am I right in understanding this is like the idea of Star Trek replicators that can create physical, working items from nothing?
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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My understanding of 3d printers is that they can only print on paper or plastic, not other materials like metal and can just produce "shapes", not complex mechanical parts that have to interact with each other... but if that is so, it's only a limit of current technology application, since you already have machines that can produce both those things separately you just need to put them together with 3d printing tech.

The real question is can you use 3d printers to make more 3d printers? Those science fiction matter converters don't defy the laws of physics, they are just not energy efficient since it requires way more energy to produce "stuff" than the available energy extracted from the "stuff", but that won't be a problem for the forseeable future since there is more energy than there is "stuff".

Right now the idea of using the converted energy from 10,000 trees to produce 1 gallon of gasoline seems like a good trade off... just think of what we can do with the "useless junk" floating around the solar system that is trillions of times the mass of the entire planet Earth.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:07 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
Wait by "3-D printers" am I right in understanding this is like the idea of Star Trek replicators that can create physical, working items from nothing?


Not from nothing, but usually from some kind of "material cartridge" much like a paper printer has ink cartridges. Right now they just gradually print layer by layer.

Here's a time-lapse video of one printing a Yoda model: Click
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