Log in to check your private messages
Anakin Skywalker
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » Characters of the Expanded Universe View previous topic :: View next topic  
Re: .
 PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:54 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

Arawn_Fenn wrote:
Good for you, but that has nothing to do with anything I said. Also, Leland Chee is not the "foremost authority" on SW ( though some may try to wish him into such a position in order to accomplish an agenda ). That status belongs to a different person.

You were talking about the Holocron hierarchy, not Lucas. Stop dodging. And Leland is the foremost authority there, moreso than Rostoni. And far more than any "understood" or "obvious" things you have assumed about SW. And that is what my comment referred to: Your dismissing of him based on it not making sense per your understanding. That I would not have done the same on such flimsy grounds.

Quote:
When you're trying to negate Lucas as an authority on SW, what you assume is being substituted in his place.

This might be a little hard to swallow, so I will try to make it more clear:

Lucas is an authority on SW to be sure. The foremost one. However, he has erected a system around him to be caretakers of SW in his place, and as part of their job, those caretakers define the "truth of SW" that the EU is built upon. So insofar as this same truth is to be adhered to, something we pretty much have to in a discussion of Holocron continuity or Canon, the caretakers are the final authority, not Lucas. Not because GL doesn't get to tell them what to do, but because unless he explicitly does so, or they go out of their way to incoprporate comments by him, his opinions and statements aren't reflected in the EU.

It is not a matter of Leland being in opposition to Lucas, or not being a slave to his vision. It is a matter of practicality. Of whether Lucas actually got off his butt and gave Leland an order. Until he does, Leland gets to do what he wants, and since his job includes sound decisions as far as the EU is concerned, it is no stretch that he would have to weigh blind servitude to GL's opinions against the good of the EU. Turn a blind eye to interview comments if these would be detrimental to the EU, for example. We have all been exposed to Lucas' comment about being willing to let others play in his universe. That implies he is willing to let others do stuff with it so long as his core beliefs are respected. His non-core beliefes are not so lucky, however.

It basically comes down to whether you are a Lucas adherent or a Holocron adherent, as I have mentioned many times in the past. And the EU is a Holocron adherent, in practice making most of us that as well.

Quote:
It's not rocket science. He failed miserably when asked to provide examples of EU overriding the films, because EU doesn't override the films. The whole concept of a so-called "emergency" in this context does not make sense, being nothing more than a statement of the same old desperate up-is-down revisionism that puts C-canon above the films.

None of this justifies why he should not be taken seriously, however. The thing you were supposed to answer. I have above given practical reasons for why an emergency hatch is viable. Cause Lucas might muck things up for the EU, and he pays them to make sure it isn't mucked up. There can be such a thing as paying someone to make sure you don't screw things up for yourself. GL is also perfectly within his rights to force Leland to change this policy. He hasn't, far as we know.

Quote:
It means exactly what it says: Leland's various excuses given to ignore Lucas don't apply to the material in the commentaries, and he has provided no similar rationale to justify the exclusion of that material.

You are starting at the wrong end. The premise has to be established first. Why should the material in the commentaries be included to begin with? Anything relevant from them can be delivered to Licensing through other, more specialized means, while the commentaries are an informal talk between creators and viewers. If there is a discrepancy between the commentaries and the EU, as there sometimes are , that must mean what was said didn't matter enough to Lucas or the film development team to be included in the Holocron, or was ignored by Leland for some reason. Whatever the case, it means the commentary was not authoritative enough to become part of Holocron continuity.

So if it is the best source for Ani being the Chosen One, it doesn't hold up versus a skeptical audience. Fortunately, no one is really going to doubt Ani being the Chosen One. All they can say it that it hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt. And since the GL mouthpieces give conflicting accounts, they don't illuminate the issue either.

Quote:
DarthMRN wrote:
However, these being brief forum posts about a subject we fans are not really meant to understand completely, there might well be other reasons to ignore GL too.

It is only your assumption that we are not really meant to understand the subject completely. This is incorrect. There is no official support for this assumption anywhere.

Sorry, no. Leland has said as much. The Holocron system is for internal purposes, and fans wouldn't really understand how it works. Of course, with the TOS forum and blog gone, I can no longer prove this. Maybe when the blogs get back online.

Quote:
We already have that. The ROTS DVD is a canon product.

Nope. Only the film on that DVD is canon. The behind the scenes interviews with Ewan or Rick or whoever doesn't make these people canon parts of the GFFA, for example. The menu system doesn't exist as some entity in the GFFA Han Solo once came across. Stop being silly.

Quote:
You seem to think that disingenuously asking for the "narrator God perspective" while simultaneously refusing to listen to the SW creator God perspective is a neat trick.

That is because I thought it implied that the God perspective in question was one part of a canon media product. The opening crawl of the films. Textbox text in a comic book. Narration in a novel. Not interviews or commentaries made on the side.

Quote:
It's not. You know what the "God perspective" is on this subject, but you don't accept it as superior to your own.

Nonsense. I am merely defending healthy skepticism, all the while crushing this silly notion that what can be heard in commentaries and interviews are part of what we today call Canon. It is a matter of general principle. I don't personally doubt that Ani is the Chosen One. I personally doubt you can prove he is. There is a difference.

Quote:
The status of the Chosen One is defined by destroying the Sith and thus restoring balance to the Force. Because Anakin does these things, Anakin is confirmed as the Chosen One.

This is based on the premise that Yoda's definition is correct, after Mace draws it in question. GL mouthpiece vs GL mouthpiece helps no one. The only way to determine which one was right is through empirical observation, and since the Sith tradition survived under the Holocron paradigm, and we can't actually see the Force getting balanced, we lack that too.

Quote:
Ignoring Lucas won't magically remove the relevant events in ROTJ from canonical existence. To argue that Anakin is not the Chosen One requires more than just a game of Simon Says. It must be shown that he does not fit the definition of the Chosen One. This approach is destined to fail in light of the facts we have.

The burden of proof is upon the one making a claim to begin with, not the doubters of that claim. And the beginning claim is that Anakin is the Chosen One. Until this is proven, I don't have to prove anthing. It is not my burden to do so. Which is good, for you are right, I couldn't.

Quote:
DarthMRN wrote:
Its adherence would be a courtesy, one that must be weighed against the reality of getting a satisfactory product on the shelves on time.


Hilarious. In what way does confirming or not confirming Anakin as the Chosen One interfere with "getting a satisfactory product on the shelves on time"?

You need to stop cherrypicking with your interpretations. I was speaking in generalities. That the practical considerations of running the EU justifies the ability to igore GL unless explicitly told something, and perhaps then too. And that as an extension of this, Ani as the Chosen One might not be included in the Holocron just because of some DVD commentary. And until the moment we have confirmation that he is included, though some source claiming so in the God perspective, we can't say for sure that is the case.

Quote:
Utter nonsense. Since Holocron entries are not revealed to us, you can't use this as a requirement to exclude facts you don't like, because you won't be notified either way. By that rationale we can know nothing.

You are catching on. Except that isn't nonsense. It is healthy skepticism, something this fandom lacks in spades. A truth exists, and it can be found somewhere. That it is hard getting there doesn't mean we can claim facts from what are merely assumptions.
Besides, we can verify whether Ani as the Chosen One is part of the Holocron: By having a source approved by Licensing tell us so from the God perspective. But until one of these scenarios come to pass, we can know nothing, as you say.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:17 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

Typical that I have to dig up the evidence myself.

The Star Wars Fact File says explicitly that Vader brought balance to the Force by killing Palpatine on DS2. As a reference work, it takes the god perspective, and since the prophesy says the Chosen One does this, Windu's words are overridden by this god-perspective truth. Demonstrably making Ani the Chosen One.

Also shows how the EU can supercede the movies, even though the movies themselves already told us this. We still needed an EU source for the final authoritative confirmation.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:00 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Mad Wook
Knight
Knight

Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 464

I'd say the Mortis story is the final word.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

It does carry the weight that might force a retcon of EU material. And potentially, but highly unlikely, contradicting the strong implication of the movies.

But first things first: Some sort of tangible explanation for whatever the actual message of the Mortis arc was. Until we have that, the clusterfrak that was those episodes remain worthless as an authority on simple grounds of being unintelligible, and requiring vast amounts of interpretation.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:25 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5500
Location: Beyond Shadows

He can't overwrite the main plotline of his own movies! I draw the line at LucasPower there. *crosses arms emphatically*
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:08 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4765
Location: Korriban

Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
He can't overwrite the main plotline of his own movies! I draw the line at LucasPower there. *crosses arms emphatically*


The PT did it to the OT. They really botched some stuff.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:09 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5500
Location: Beyond Shadows

Main plotline. Like, oh, I don't know...Anakin being the Chosen One meant to be redeemed by his son and destined to destroy the Emperor? You know, that plotline.
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:11 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4765
Location: Korriban

Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Main plotline. Like, oh, I don't know...Anakin being the Chosen One meant to be redeemed by his son and destined to destroy the Emperor? You know, that plotline.


Wasn't adding all that a interruption of the plotline of the OT in and of itself?
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:30 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5500
Location: Beyond Shadows

Adding all what? Luke did redeem his father, and Anakin Skywalker did defeat the Emperor in the OT. Lucas added the Chosen One prophecy, but it didn't step on RotJ's toes, it rather supported what already happened.
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:07 am Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

Yes, but it did change it from being merely a villainous redemption, into a destined event that brought balance to the Force (tm). A big enough retcon by far that using Mortis to alter the movies isn't really a novel concept. So long as he keeps the old facts while establishing a new Vision (tm) for their context, it isn't really different. Save what the EU has made explicit that was merely implicit in the movies, which of course doesn't matter worth jack.

Say the obvious interpretation of Mortis is right: Balance truly means stay on Mortis and chain the Kids forever, with subtle effects on the real galaxy as a result. In this case the Chosen One prohesy by the Jedi was all humbug, and the killing Palp was a fairly mundane, secular act of regret and familial love. The Force was never balanced. The EU even supports it in that the Sith came back, and whatever balancing of the Force was supposed to have changed, it didn't last.

The worst part is, having read The Secret History of Star Wars, I have no problem envisioning GL's take on the raw facts having changed since RotS. That man has retconned his own previous films one by one ever since ESB.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:36 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Ultimatedash
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Posts: 128

Honestly while I'm not a fan of the Mortis storyline at all, the one thing I liked about it was that it clarified the whole chosen one thing. He was supposed to stay on Mortis, but he didn't, IMO showing that in star wars is still very much about free will and choices. It also explained why we've had so many large threats after ROTJ.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:35 am Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

That's one interpretation. Another, which I must admit being a fan of, is the one where the entire trilogy was a sort of metaphor for Anakin's Chosen One story arc: Due to Ani's meddling, the dark side kills the light (Palp and the Jedi), then by giving himself to the dark side, and using the link between Father and Son, he manages to kill Son (the Unifying Force of destiny providing the one way past the dark side's defenses, that only a darksided Chosen One could capitalize upon). With Father's self-sacrifice representing how the Force created Ani, who damn near killed it, just to get to Palpatine in the end.

It of course leaves tons of nonsensical dialogue and events unexplained, while leaving the overall story as the only notable thing. But that is the only way I can think of to reconcile the trilogy with existing continuity.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:01 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Arawn_Fenn
Knight
Knight

Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 217
Location: Ekkaia

Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Lucas added the Chosen One prophecy, but it didn't step on RotJ's toes, it rather supported what already happened.


In the same sense, Lucas adding Mortis doesn't remove what already happened. Mortis is just the new "midichlorians". People reject it as a change, but it's only new information.

DarthMRN wrote:
Turn a blind eye to interview comments if these would be detrimental to the EU, for example.


How are Lucas' comments detrimental to the EU? They're only detrimental to those who are contradicted by them. You're the one turning a blind eye to them.

DarthMRN wrote:
And Leland is the foremost authority there, moreso than Rostoni.


Rostoni? Laughing

DarthMRN wrote:
A truth exists, and it can be found somewhere.


Not in the magical land of fantasy where Leland is the authority on SW and Lucas doesn't matter.

DarthMRN wrote:
The worst part is, having read The Secret History of Star Wars, I have no problem envisioning GL's take on the raw facts having changed since RotS.


Envision it all you want, that doesn't mean it actually happened. Speculation, wishful thinking, and appeals to ignorance constantly spewing from the fanbase don't constitute a canon position or a change on Lucas' part.

DarthMRN wrote:
Why should the material in the commentaries be included to begin with?


Simon didn't say, eh? The commentaries don't fit any of the various excuses given for ignoring something, but they're to be ignored anyway?

DarthMRN wrote:
Also shows how the EU can supercede the movies, even though the movies themselves already told us this. We still needed an EU source for the final authoritative confirmation.


Content-free circular logic at its finest. Because you ( not we ) refuse to accept film dialogue and Lucas' word, you "needed" an EU source. This does not show that EU can supersede the movies. It only shows you refuse to accept any other outcome. You're not going to be able to show that the EU can supersede the movies by comically using an example where the EU and the movies agree. The EU agreeing with Lucas is not a case of it superseding anything. The whole concept of the EU superseding the movies is revealed as nothing more than a meaningless fantasy stemming from rejection of the well-known canon hierarchy.

DarthMRN wrote:
using Mortis to alter the movies


Mortis doesn't alter the movies. Altering the movies does not seem to be part of TCW's mandate.

DarthMRN wrote:
The EU even supports it in that the Sith came back


The Sith coming back in the EU doesn't necessarily mean that the Force became unbalanced again. We know from the handling of the pre-Tenebrous era in the EU that Sith can be around when the Force is balanced. Besides, the Father-Son-Daughter triad was insufficient to prevent the rise of the Banite Sith; why should an Anakin-Son-Daughter triad ultimately be any different?

DarthMRN wrote:
Say the obvious interpretation of Mortis is right: Balance truly means stay on Mortis and chain the Kids forever, with subtle effects on the real galaxy as a result.


That may be an interpretation of Mortis, but it's hardly an obvious or even correct one. Staying in Mortis forever would do nothing about the problem of Palpatine, and "subtle effects" workarounds would be unlikely to stop his now uninterrupted rise in power. Thus the Force would presumably remain out of balance.

DarthMRN wrote:
But that is the only way I can think of to reconcile the trilogy with existing continuity.


The trilogy is entirely consistent with existing continuity. Reconciling it is only a matter of dropping mistaken assumptions like "balance means stay on Mortis" ( which was contradicted by Lucas in the first place ). On this point Overlords is being treated as though it is the entirety of the arc and Ghosts of Mortis is being treated like it never happened. As Ghosts of Mortis reinforced once more, the relevant threat is Palpatine. Anakin's destiny of restoring balance will be achieved outside Mortis; the Father says this outright. The Father apparently saw the children as a greater threat to the balance of the Force than the Sith, because of the risk that the children would escape to wreak havoc in the normal galaxy. Anakin staying in Mortis forever is not the only way for the Son to be prevented from becoming this threat, or equivalently for "balance in Mortis" to be achieved. The death of the Ones is another way. With the children dead, Palpatine is the remaining threat to the balance of the Force. But it's interesting that you insist on taking the Father's first opinion in Overlords as unassailable fact, despite his own dialogue in Ghosts of Mortis contradicting this viewpoint, when character dialogue is somehow not enough to confirm Anakin as the Chosen One. This is a transparent double standard. As usual there is no consistent set of rules in evidence here, just a collection of desperate rationalizations intended to somehow make failed theories work. Mortis' real crime was its confirmation of duality.
_________________
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:33 am Reply with quote  
Message
  illogicalRogue2
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 2854
Location: ....last know presence was near the Tingel Arm..

Arawn_Fenn wrote:


DarthMRN wrote:
And Leland is the foremost authority there, moreso than Rostoni.


Rostoni? Laughing



Who do you consider then? Lucas? Laughing That would be hilarious. Cause I don't see him being the foremost authority of anything EU. And with the saga he likes to play by his own rules and make things up as he goes. His authority only goes as far as what he says tomorrow that contradicts today.

But we've gone way off topic. If you'd like to continue this conversation- please do so in the Continuity thread.
_________________

-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger

 PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:22 am Reply with quote  
Message
  DarthMRN
Knight
Knight

Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 251

Continued here.
_________________
I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.


View user's profile Send private message

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » Characters of the Expanded Universe

Page 7 of 8
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield