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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:38 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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@IR2: See on all of that I agree with you 100%. I think our 2 party system is worthless and on top of it they get lost in things that shouldn't matter to the country at large. As cold as it is (and I'm going to have to dog on some of my own people here) kicking people out of the country or who marries who shouldn't be nearly as high on the priority list as taxes, national debt, or pulling out of the Middle East and yet we get bogged down in pleasing constituents of specific parties. Problem is that we've always existed on a 2-party system, ever since the beginning of the country, so I don't know if we'll get out of it any time soon.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Corellias Dream
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It's entirely possible to change away from a two party system. The UK was essentially two-party until about 1900, when the current Labour Party was formally organized.

The biggest problem to introducing change in the American system, I think, is the appalling cost of campaigning for office at the higher levels. Any new party would have to build a strong following at local government levels in order to draw the funding needed to run a presidential candidate.


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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:59 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Well technically we have lots of candidates from 3rd parties, but they have no chance here. The problem is that we have the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party and we have the coasts that for the most part won't abandon the democratic party (though I will admit that they are more likely to look at other options) so we're temporarily stuck.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Well technically we have lots of candidates from 3rd parties, but they have no chance here. The problem is that we have the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party and we have the coasts that for the most part won't abandon the democratic party (though I will admit that they are more likely to look at other options) so we're temporarily stuck.


Honestly I think one of the major roadblocks to a third party candidate is the majority response of "Oh he/she will never win!". I think if all the people who don't vote for that reason go out and vote for that candidate, that said candidate would be much more of a factor. I know finances are key, too, but shortcuts can be made around that thanks to social networking and the age of information.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:29 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Jedi Joe wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
Well technically we have lots of candidates from 3rd parties, but they have no chance here. The problem is that we have the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party and we have the coasts that for the most part won't abandon the democratic party (though I will admit that they are more likely to look at other options) so we're temporarily stuck.


Honestly I think one of the major roadblocks to a third party candidate is the majority response of "Oh he/she will never win!". I think if all the people who don't vote for that reason go out and vote for that candidate, that said candidate would be much more of a factor. I know finances are key, too, but shortcuts can be made around that thanks to social networking and the age of information.


I live in KS. Nearly everybody here is gonna vote Romney. They don't even care about any other candidate. He's the Republican candidate and that's the way their family's been voting since aught six dagnabit and that's the way it'll stay. My cousin is one of those with a shrine to Obama, and he'll refuse to vote for anyone else because he thinks he's just so cool. Third candidates have a hard time getting attention despite the fact that sometimes they have a better grasp on the necessities of the country as a whole.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:41 am Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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I have always criticized the two-party system. It makes people too narrow-minded. They vote for the party rather than the candidate. It creates a war between sides so that no one focuses on the actual issues. I'm not saying it's all bad, but it has major issues.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:20 am Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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Caedus_16 wrote:
the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party


Actually, Minnesota has voted Democrat in the last 9 presidential elections, Wisconsin has voted Democrat in 7 of the last 10 elections and Iowa has voted Democrat in 5 of the last 10 elections. The Midwest does not always vote Republican.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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GrandMaster wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party


Actually, Minnesota has voted Democrat in the last 9 presidential elections, Wisconsin has voted Democrat in 7 of the last 10 elections and Iowa has voted Democrat in 5 of the last 10 elections. The Midwest does not always vote Republican.


I was thinking more in the vein of Missouri, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, those kinds of states.. There are always surprises and deviations but for the most part its red territory and sometimes it seems more out of tradition than anything else.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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-

I am reading a lot of resentment toward a two party system, but I have a question. Is this the fault of the government, or the citizens?

As much as we would like to trash both parties for being the same, their core beliefs are actually almost polar opposites. For the most part, this also seems true of the American people -- there is one group that gravitates towards liberal ideals and another towards conservative ones. How exactly do we reconcile with each other? Should we?

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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:43 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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Autobon wrote:
-

I am reading a lot of resentment toward a two party system, but I have a question. Is this the fault of the government, or the citizens?

As much as we would like to trash both parties for being the same, their core beliefs are actually almost polar opposites. For the most part, this also seems true of the American people -- there is one group that gravitates towards liberal ideals and another towards conservative ones. How exactly do we reconcile with each other? Should we?

-


They do have different social views for sure, but economically and militarily (which is definitely more important in this election) they are very similar.

Both Obama and Romney are pro-war, pro-Patriot Act, and pro-NDAA. Romney may say he's against Obamacare but he forgets that his Romneycare bill in Massachusetts was one of the sparks for it (plus he said in '08 that he'd "absolutely" bring Romneycare to a national level).

I don't see Romney doing anything about unemployment or the debt or the fact that we're killing people in Libya or Pakistan, or how we can hold our own citizens under indefinite detention, just like Obama hasn't done anything those things.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
the entire midwest that will never abandon the Republican party


Actually, Minnesota has voted Democrat in the last 9 presidential elections, Wisconsin has voted Democrat in 7 of the last 10 elections and Iowa has voted Democrat in 5 of the last 10 elections. The Midwest does not always vote Republican.


I was thinking more in the vein of Missouri, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, those kinds of states.. There are always surprises and deviations but for the most part its red territory and sometimes it seems more out of tradition than anything else.


I do agree with you there, those states are very solidly red, just like New York and California are solidly blue.
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“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

“Eventually, we all betray something, Tahiri. It’s what you stay true to that counts.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Caedus_16 wrote:
@IR2: See on all of that I agree with you 100%. I think our 2 party system is worthless and on top of it they get lost in things that shouldn't matter to the country at large. As cold as it is (and I'm going to have to dog on some of my own people here) kicking people out of the country or who marries who shouldn't be nearly as high on the priority list as taxes, national debt, or pulling out of the Middle East and yet we get bogged down in pleasing constituents of specific parties.


I agree. Plus I'm also for ending the free ride our politicians have now. Make them pay for their medical with that nice high paying payroll. Make that payroll END when their job does and so forth.

Caedus_16 wrote:
Problem is that we've always existed on a 2-party system, ever since the beginning of the country, so I don't know if we'll get out of it any time soon.


But that's a common misconception. Republicans and Democrats as their parties are today didn't even come about until much later. But the whole party system is bunk- it's gathering like minded individuals attempting to pass their version of laws.

What it needs to be is just one party- AMERICANS- all voting one time on who the best candidate for the job should be.

Federalist Party (c. 1789 – c. 1820)
Anti-Federalist Party (c. 1789 – c. 1792)
Democratic-Republican Party (1792 – c. 1824)
Toleration Party (1816 – c. 1827)
Anti-Masonic Party (1826–1838)
National Republican Party (1825–1833)
Nullifier Party (1830–1839)
Whig Party (1833–1856)
Liberty Party (1840–1848)
Law and Order Party of Rhode Island (1840s)
Free Soil Party (1848–1855)
Anti-Nebraska Party (1854)
American Republican Party (1843–1854)
American Party (a.k.a. "Know-Nothings") (c. 1854 – 1858)
Opposition Party (1854–1858)
Constitutional Union Party (1860)
Unconditional Union Party (1861-1866)
National Union Party, (1864–1868)
Readjuster Party (1870–1885)
People's Party of Utah (1870–1891)
Liberal Party (Utah) (1870–1893)
Liberal Republican Party (1872)
Greenback Party (1874–1884)
Socialist Labor Party of America (1876-2008)
Anti-Monopoly Party (1884)
People's Party (a.k.a. "Populists") (1887–1908)
Silver Party (1892–1902)
National Democratic Party ("Gold Democrats") (1896–1900)
Silver Republican Party (1896–1900)
Social Democratic Party (1898–1901)
Home Rule Party of Hawaii (1900–1912)
Socialist Party of America (1901–1972)
Independence Party (a.k.a. "Independence League") (1906–1914)
Progressive Party 1912 (a.k.a. "Bull Moose Party") (1912–1914)
National Woman's Party (1913–1930)
Non-Partisan League (1915–1956)
Farmer-Labor Party (1918–1944)
Proletarian Party of America (1920–1971)
Progressive Party 1924 (1924)
Communist League of America (1928–1934)
American Workers Party (1933–1934)
Workers Party of the United States (1934–1938)
Union Party (1936)
American Labor Party (1936–1956)
America First Party (1944) (1944–1996)
States' Rights Democratic Party (a.k.a. "Dixiecrats") (1948)
Progressive Party 1948 (1948–1955)
Vegetarian Party (1948–1964)
Constitution Party (1950s) (1952–1968?)
American Nazi Party (1959–1967)
Puerto Rican Socialist Party (1959–1993)
Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party (1964)
Black Panther Party (1966–1970s)
Youth International Party (a.k.a. "Yippies") (1967)
Communist Workers Party (1969–1985)
People's Party (1971–1976)
New Union Party (1974-2005?)
U.S. Labor Party (1975–1979)
Concerned Citizens Party (1975–1992)
Citizens Party (1979–1984)
New Alliance Party (1979–1992)
Populist Party of 1980s–1990s (1984–1994)
Looking Back Party (1984–1996)
Independent Party of Utah (1988–1996)
A Connecticut Party (1990-?)
New Party (1992–1998)
Natural Law Party (1992–2004)
Veterans Party (2003–2008)
Christian Freedom Party (2004)
Personal Choice Party (2004-2006?)
Boston Tea Party (2006-2012)
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Autobon wrote:
-

I am reading a lot of resentment toward a two party system, but I have a question. Is this the fault of the government, or the citizens?

It's a Government of the people- those people left unchecked have corrupted the integrity of the system

Autobon wrote:
As much as we would like to trash both parties for being the same, their core beliefs are actually almost polar opposites. For the most part, this also seems true of the American people -- there is one group that gravitates towards liberal ideals and another towards conservative ones. How exactly do we reconcile with each other? Should we?

-


But at the same time no person blindly should fall under one category. Many who do still believe in the system think we all must think this way. But I'm sorry not everyone is going to agree with their party 100%

The only way I can see reconciling is doing away with the labels. Heck Ted it almost sounds that to you there are only two ways to see things liberal or conservative. I personally hate being labeled. I change my mind way too often to be in any party. And when I tried both parties I found that both sides had IMO some very stupid thoughts on certain things. Things that I'm not ok with. Enough to keep me from joining either one. So I stay out of both. Thus in our system I can't vote for who gets to be voted for in the presidency. America is only American to the 2 parties. You either play or don't count to them. I look forward to the day when more individuals outnumber that old line of thought.
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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Jedi Joe wrote:
They do have different social views for sure, but economically and militarily (which is definitely more important in this election) they are very similar.


I believe that to be an oversimplification. They might or might not behave similarly once elected, but their campaign outlines are very much different. In terms of function of government, spending and cuts, taxes, etc. both campaigns promise very different solutions.

With foreign policy you have already seen a dramatic difference between Romney and Obama. Look at their words and actions in regards to the Middle East and Israel for example. Obama constantly refuses to meet with the PM of Israel and considers him "noise." Meanwhile he bends over backwards to apologize to Muslims who attack our citizens and embassies. Romney embraces Israel and makes it a point to tell Muslims that if they wanted peace there would be.

Agree with whomever you want, but they clearly do not share the same views.

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 PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Autobon wrote:
They might or might not behave similarly once elected, but their campaign outlines are very much different.
-


Indeed! That too is a messed up thing. Makes you feel as though the position is a puppet position.

All you can count on is being lied to.
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