Log in to check your private messages
Gender Issues
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:07 am Reply with quote  
Message
  VileZero
Master
Master

Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 816
Location: Maryland

RE equal pay: I've read that the reason is because it is often that men are much more likely to haggle and negotiate salary, whereas women will take a job offer without negotiating.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-06-13/women-doctors-pay/55580000/1


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:06 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5545
Location: Beyond Shadows

Which is funny, because I negotiated. But then, I'm told I break every stereotypical trait in the book. Except the one about crying. I do cry at the drop of a hat. Wink
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:12 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Dancelittleewok
EUC Staff
EUC Staff

Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Posts: 1166
Location: Kansas

Autobon wrote:

Definitions as to what counts as discrimination can vary widely. For example: if I decide never to let Dad drive my car, and he thinks its because I think he's old - am I discriminating against him on the basis of age? Should I even care that he feels discriminated against?


It would cross the line if you created or supported new laws barring old people driving due to their age. Based on what I've read, the government defines discrimination well. You have to be more than a person from a minority group to win a lawsuit. Personally, I would care if my dad felt discriminated against.

Caedus wrote:
That being said I think the equality thing is frustrating. I've been yelled at for things that weren't intentional (i.e. holding doors, helping carry stuff, things like that) but when I don't do it again I get called things like a "piggish male" or a "jerk" for not doing those things.


I chalk that up to personal preference. What pleases one person can anger another, although I do understand your frustration.

illogicalRogue2 wrote:
Sounds like in this case discrimination can be swapped out with offended.

But what of those who get offended by people who find THEM offensive? Are not they offended too? Who's offendedness takes precedence? Same with the discrimination- when it's blatant it's obvious, but when it's up to the person feeling discriminated against to make the call....


I think discrimination and offended are related, but aren't the same thing. People can be offended by behavior that's simply offensive but not sexist. However, discrimination based on gender is offensive.

Quote:
I too have to question then when someone is just crying wolf at a set of similar circumstances.


There are some people who cry wolf, but like Cerrinea said, that doesn't negate legitimate cases of sexism or the word itself. That's like saying marriage is meaningless because of domestic violence.

Quote:
I mean I'm the only male at my work- and I get all the heavy lifting, all the late night trash runs and any other job deemed "the man's job" or in need of "man muscles" But I just figure that's how they want it. Gets them out of the heavy work, but then when it comes to equal rights- should not they too be doing all the same work?


When I worked in an animal hospital, there were like...two guys in the whole place. Women did most of the lifting. I was expected to lift a 100 lbs dog all by myself, and I don't weigh a lot. Anyway, back to the subject, if you feel like you're being discriminated based on the male stereotype, then speak with them. Make your case. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any law that says men and women must do the same work. Perhaps it's unfair. But not discriminatory.

Darth Henning wrote:
I would just like to note that I strongly support equal pay. But only when adjusted for years and time worked in a job.

Can you provide your source for what you referenced in your post? When it comes to these things, I really like to read the articles too.

Based on what's posted, it seems you guys are making the case for reverse sexism. Do any other girls want to comment on this topic?
_________________
Observation: Life would be cooler if everyone spoke like HK-47.

Communications Coordinator at EUCantina.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:47 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Dancelittleewok wrote:


Based on what's posted, it seems you guys are making the case for reverse sexism.


I actually think that's part of the problem. I"ve been called sexist for little things that I do for both males and females, but the women assume its because I'm sexist (therefore being sexist themselves) and the whole thing is one big ridiculous circle. Sexism is something we will never get rid of (at least not completely) but I've always taken those kinds of things with a grain of salt. If I didn't women everywhere would appear to me as nothing but frustrations (I generalize, this is not true but more just me being colorful in my words). I'm not for ignoring the problem, but I'm for everyone taking a step back and forcing themselves to take...the comments...and actions...with a grain of blasted salt. It goes both ways, it has to. Did you know men get sexually harassed to?

15%-30% - http://all.net/games/sex/larsen.html

This is obviously nothing compared to women getting harassed, but it still happens. Yet the term "sexism" is almost always involving men being portrayed as the villains and to be frank I simply grow tired of it. Both ways exists, streets go two directions, and both genders can be frustrated by the other. I give up. All of you, male or female, can hold your own damn doors and carry your own damn groceries and say nice things about yourselves because now I'm equally apathetic towards you all (and yet somehow this will still make me a pig).
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:18 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

Okay, it's time for me to whip out John Scalzi on the subject. Because you guys have it so bad.

http://is.gd/GGN6K0
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:28 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Cerrinea wrote:
Okay, it's time for me to whip out John Scalzi on the subject. Because you guys have it so bad.

http://is.gd/GGN6K0


Aaaand I'm offended. Because basically that article says that because of the gender, sexual preference, and race that I had no choice in I am wrong and have no place to comment. Thank you, you just highlighted my point. I must now apparently be supposed to feel guilty about things I had no control over and such.

I've had this one thrown at me before, but the thing is that I've had nothing handed to me. I've slept in parks, I've gone two to three days in a row without eating, I've been beaten to the point of hospitalization, and I've spent years just trying to graduate college (go for a year, work 2 to pay for it, go for a year, work 2 to pay for it) so I'll go ahead and say throw the word 'privileged' around all you like, because more than ever this is something written by someone who doesn't want to understand anyone else's path in life. That's the problem with sexism, with racism, with homophobia - it generalizes. And since we're allowed to decide when we're being discriminated against or treated like something less because of what color or gender we are I will state outright that you have offended me, you know nothing about me, and you're generalizing. Congratulations, you're sexist.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way him thinking that if he puts it in WoW terms males will understand it is sexist. I don't play Warcraft, I think its stupid and a waste of money. But apparently all males play WoW.

And just to call you on it over in the thread about who would have what from the SW universe or whatever you post a picture of Ewan McGregor. Congratulations, that is also sexist. I laughed when I saw it but if we're fighting dirty I'll state that if I'd have tossed out a picture of Natalie Portman someone would have come after me for it (her acting was horrible and she had no personality in those films, so it would HAVE to have been for her physical characteristics) and I would have been labelled a pig. So congrats, you reinforced my point that it goes both ways yet again. But oh wait, because I'm a straight white male it doesn't matter, I just have to take the insult and the sexism because since I'm not of a minority skin color, of a homosexual nature ,or female I simply can't understand how it is to be poor, broke, AND insulted. So I guess my opinion doesn't count.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:48 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

You obviously didn't really read the article or Scalzi's follow-ups. Or you would have realized that Scalzi is John Scalzi, a straight, white male who happens to like women quite a bit.

Yeah, I like looking at good looking males. So shoot me. What I don't do is harass them or try to control what they can or cannot do with either their lives or their bodies.

As a matter of fact I have three sons so I have as much a vested interest in the fair treatment of males as I do the fair treatment of females. But that doesn't negate the fact that my three straight, white sons still get the lowest difficulty setting in Real Life.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:00 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

I will go openly on record saying that being a straight white male guarantees NOTHING. Like I said I've had an extremely difficult life. Nothing about it has been easy or "on the lowest difficulty setting" (ridiculously stupid since like I said not all males play WoW, but I digress). I work 36 hours a week (in an economy where it is proving very difficult to get a second job and anything where I'd make real money requires experience I can't have without a degree or years or other experience) in a minimum wage job that tries its hardest to screw me out of as much of my check as possible. I'm paying off school bills and loans, for a car payment, rent, and for food which leaves me with little money for anything else. I have had nothing handed to me, and unless a suitcase full of money falls out of the sky I never will. Ya, I'm not a minority gay female and I am sure its harder that way (no sarcasm, that is just a whole giant red prejudice bullseye), but automatically assuming that all white straight males have it easy is sexist, racism, and I dunno the term but....preference-ist?

I did actually read the article. And some of the comments. A lot of it is generalizing. He openly says that he doesn't want straight while males defending themselves and that we all have it easy and privileged so we shouldn't complain, but that also assumes all people are the same in a certain category. Not all African-American people have the same background and life experience, not all women have the same background or life experience, and so on and so forth. But he generalizes. Its offensive to me because while perhaps he is privileged and feels guilt over it, but he assumes all straight white men are like him.

Yes, I like looking at good looking women myself, but the difference is that I can get in trouble merely for looking. Its considered piggish or inappropriate, that we should have more 'class' than that.And I don't care what women do with their lives or bodies. I don't always agree with the decisions, but I don't hinder them because its their life not mine. I don't vote unless I find a candidate (in any election) who embodies what I think is right so I obviously haven't voted in awhile. But I still don't drool over women publicly because yeah, I think its a tad offensive to do so. Ogling gets men in trouble, wish that one went both ways.

You ignored all of the things I said in my previous post that pertained to my life experience and why I found that article offensive, instead just trying to continue to say that straight white men have it easy. No, we do not all have it easy. My parents didn't have much to give me and I don't have much, I'm just trying to survive. In fact when applying for college I can't get much help financially because I'm white, male, and only of average GPA. Life will be a struggle for me for a long time, possibly always. But until this discussion I have taken it with that grain of salt I mentioned before because I try to just be a good person to everyone I know and to just live, but apparently that's not enough. I also have to feel guilty for my skin, my sex, and my preferences. So I guess I'm doing it wrong.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:07 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5545
Location: Beyond Shadows

*sigh* Perhaps I have simply lived a life of sunshine and roses, but I operate in the Computer Science world, a male dominated society. And yet I am treated with respect, make the same money as men, have both beat out and lost to men for awards/projects, and feel no better or worse than them. I rely on my own motivation, and personally hate all the crying so many females do about sexism. I know it exists, but good grief. I am a female that has gone through four years of college and now works in the real, corporate world, and I do not see women being treated the way we are talking about, not in the frequency we are talking. I am so tired of all the crying. This is not the 40s. Go out there and make something of yourself, but all people can be discriminated against, whether they are male, female, white, black, or otherwise. All this "Woe is us, it's a fact we are the unlucky gender in America, so agree and pity us, or else" is embarrassing!

Sorry, but I'm just tired of women playing the pitiful card. C'mon, females. Men can actually be decent creatures, believe it or not. And women can be quite despicable at times, themselves. Grrr...
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:31 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

When someone like Rush Limbaugh repeatedly over a number of days calls an intelligent, educated young woman a whore on his national radio show because she wants all employers to cover the cost of birth control (via insurance benefits) all is not sunshine and roses. Birth Control is a medication often prescribed for serious and painful reproductive medical conditions.

I don't think there was anything "pitiful" about women being justifiably angry about this kind of misogyny.

Particularly when you consider that drugs like Viagra, that have no health benefit, are covered. Double standard, anyone?
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:38 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Cerrinea wrote:
When someone like Rush Limbaugh repeatedly over a number of days calls an intelligent, educated young woman a whore on his national radio show because she wants all employers to cover the cost of birth control (via insurance benefits) all is not sunshine and roses. Birth Control is a medication often prescribed for serious and painful reproductive medical conditions.


Rush Limbaugh is a loud, obnoxious, piggish toad. Ignore him, I'm embarrassed that anyone sides with him on anything. But that would be like me getting offended every time someone insults me for being Jewish (I'm actually Irish/Mexican, but for some reason everyone thinks I'm Jewish). I can let their backward thinking and offensive thoughts bother me or I can simply smile at the fact that they are backwards and offensive to the point of camp value and not worry about it.

BTW I apologize if anything I have said has offended you. We aren't seeing eye-to-eye on this subject, but I've seen you around here enough to know that you are smart, funny, and a good person. I apologize for taking a shot at your Ewan McGregor post. It was a low blow.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:41 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Autobon
Master
Master

Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 751
Location: Seattle, Washington

Cerrinea wrote:
But that doesn't negate the fact that my three straight, white sons still get the lowest difficulty setting in Real Life.


Cerrinea, I am going to have to agree with Caedus here; being a white male does not guarantee any privileges in life, and it is quickly becoming an increasing negative. Just try applying for a scholarship - you are effectively last on the list due to stereotypes and affirmative action policies.

Sure, some white males have it really easy due to being born in a more affluent family; the same could be said for any minority. Its easy to simplistically dump all the problems of society on one gender and skin shade, but I am sure all the white males that cannot afford housing, food, school, etc. would appreciate it if we could stop telling them how well off they are compared to everyone else.

-


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:44 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Autobon wrote:

Sure, some white males have it really easy due to being born in a more affluent family; the same could be said for any minority. Its easy to simplistically dump all the problems of society on one gender and skin shade, but I am sure all the white males that cannot afford housing, food, school, etc. would appreciate it if we could stop telling them how well off they are compared to everyone else.

-


I disagree with some of what she's said (particularly the science fiction author/blogger link) but its a recorded fact that more white families have the affluence. Minority poverty is a problem in this country.

But I do agree with you that 'White Straight Male' is becoming an insulting term that is tossed about as quickly as white people used to toss out other offensive labels because with it comes the mindset that we're all the same, we're all privileged, and we're all jerks about it if we don't realize it and admit to it. But its just not that way and its becoming a negative stereotype.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:49 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Darth Skuldren
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 6468
Location: Missouri

Well Rush Limbaugh is an idiot. Furthermore, the Scalzi thing is a generalization. Lastly, there's always going to be sexism as long as there is more than one sex. Throughout the human race is a generous helping of idiots, and some of those idiots are sexists. Personally I like to think I'm not sexist. I strive to not be sexist. And that's really all I've got to say about this topic for the moment.

Err, well one more thing: on opening doors. I open doors for people. I do so out of courtesy, not because I'm a chivalrous knight or think women are dainty things that need doors opened for them, but because it's the nice thing to do. I open the door for males and females.
_________________

"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:51 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Mara Jade Skywalker
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 5545
Location: Beyond Shadows

Cerrinea wrote:
When someone like Rush Limbaugh repeatedly over a number of days calls an intelligent, educated young woman a whore on his national radio show because she wants all employers to cover the cost of birth control (via insurance benefits) all is not sunshine and roses. Birth Control is a medication often prescribed for serious and painful reproductive medical conditions.

I don't think there was anything "pitiful" about women being justifiably angry about this kind of misogyny.

Particularly when you consider that drugs like Viagra, that have no health benefit, are covered. Double standard, anyone?


I did not say all women lead lives of sunshine and roses, I specifically referenced myself. And I didn't say every case was pitiful, as I also specifically stated I know sexism exists. I was referring to what I personally believe can be an overblown complaint.

Also, birth control can be used for medical reasons, but that is not the primary reason. Marijuana can also be used for medical purposes, but should companies cover its use also? I may misunderstand the context, but I would also think the request is silly if the woman wants companies to pay for any and all uses of birth control.
_________________

"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove

Page 2 of 8
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield