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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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You would think so but somehow I think that would offend the Rush Limbaugh somehow, and apparently we can't have that (layering on the sarcasm here).

I paid for my ID and I sincerely hope that when I renew it next I can just go in and have it handed to me. Its not about wanting things handed to me, its about not having to pay so that I can participate in an event that is supposed to be a guaranteed free right in this country (I don't vote currently, but I might change my mind on that someday and decide to).
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  GrandMaster
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The problem with voter ID here in Minnesota was that it was passed by the Republican-controlled legislature, vetoed by the Democratic governor, and is now on the ballot as a constitutional amendment (the same thing is happening with gay marriage). It really makes it look politically motivated. I find the method of putting it on the ballot as a constitutional amendment to get around a veto to be somewhat underhanded. If the US Congress tried that everytime a President vetoed something, we'd be voting on constitutional amendments all the time - it's a waste of time and money that could be spent on other things.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Cerrinea wrote:
Well, I suppose you all heard how Mitt reversed his abortion stance today. Just like he reversed his Social Security and Medicare stances.


Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

I mean does this not indicate that he could do the same thing once elected. A "I'll say anything if it gets me in power" approach?

Or is it he's smarting up and decided the old stances won't win him anything?


I would rather a candidate stick to his beliefs even if I don't agree with them. When they flip flop you lose all faith in their position.

Though from Autobon's post about Romney's response does leave you wondering if nothing has changed but some verbiage.

I have to agree Leaves me wondering- Why are we continuing to try and run the world through aide?
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Mitt was a moderate (while he was governor of Massachusetts) before he took up a more conservative stance. Now he seems to be swinging back to moderate. I think the polls before the first debate rattled him so he started up with the moderate speak. It isn't filling me with a lot of confidence about what exactly he would do as president.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Wow! http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/82313.html. More debates like this and Republicans actually have a decent chance at winning!

It is exceedingly obvious that Biden was told to be "tough" after Obama slept through his debate, but my goodness did he go over the edge. Its sad that when politicians have nothing to run on, they resort to cheap and condescending behavior with no substance. It has become quite clear that this administration cannot debate Smile - its embarrassing to watch. Let them keep shooting themselves in the foot though.

And I love Biden on his faith and abortion - he thinks its wrong to abort, but he supports it anyways. That is like an abolitionist who "personally" finds slavery disgusting, yet wholeheartedly supports it publicly and with legislation. If Biden can compromise his self-claimed values that easily, then why trust him on anything else?

EDIT: Oh ya, and Ryan on Obama's plan was priceless. Obama has no plan - he only has a speech!

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Last edited by Autobon on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:56 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Yeah, I felt that the worst point from anyone in the debate was Biden on abortion. His personal belief is that abortion is wrong, but he won't enforce that belief on other people. I assume his personal belief is also that murder is wrong, but hey, if everyone doesn't feel that way, no reason to impose his belief on others! If you believe something, stick to it enough to run on that platform. If you can't run on that platform, you don't really believe it.


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:59 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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[I incorporated my point below]


Last edited by Autobon on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Old Master Ben wrote:
Yeah, I felt that the worst point from anyone in the debate was Biden on abortion. His personal belief is that abortion is wrong, but he won't enforce that belief on other people. I assume his personal belief is also that murder is wrong, but hey, if everyone doesn't feel that way, no reason to impose his belief on others! If you believe something, stick to it enough to run on that platform. If you can't run on that platform, you don't really believe it.


That's not really fair though.

You're being elected to run the country and represent the population. Unfortunately, not every belief that you have is going to be the same as the majority of the population. You can't run the country based solely on what your opinion on everything is, you have to do what is best for the population as a whole.

I actually have to applaud Biden for having the honesty to say that he believes in something, but recognizes that the people who he is governing are more important than he is. I would rather have someone in office who is able to be honest and willing separate their opinions from their responsibilities than someone who will lie through their teeth that they believe something they don't, or someone who will do something counter to the country they are responsible for because they hold an opinion and are unwilling to recognize anyone elses.


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Autobon wrote:

And I love Biden on his faith and abortion - he thinks its wrong to abort, but he supports it anyways.



Hey now, (lol) I'm in that camp. I'm about the right to choose. I personally would choose life, but I'd not make a law telling everyone that the was I feel has to be the way it's done. That's un- American IMO, but unfortunately many lawmakers want to do just that. Impose their beliefs onto the masses.

I don't see what's wrong with the right to choose.
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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illogicalRogue2 wrote:
unfortunately many lawmakers want to do just that. Impose their beliefs onto the masses.


Of course politicians' beliefs shape their policy. For example on abortion, Obama issued an executive order to overturn MCP, in order to allow foriegn aid for internatial abortion. And lest we forget history, remember that Obama said "the first thing [he'd] do as president" is sign FOCA into law (nullifying many limitiations on abortion including common sense notification laws for parents, and so forth). Obama is a huge supporter of abortion and he could care less that the majority of Americans are opposed to it.

I do not mean to say anything of abortion, only to remind you that all politicians "impose their beliefs on the masses," as you put it. After all, you've never seen a politician go up on stage and say, "I certainly do have strong moral positions, but I resolve to do absolutely nothing about them as president and instead sip lemonade." Every position they take is influenced by who they are.

And so Biden is either insincere about his position, or he cares more about being vice-president then his own convictions. I do not want a man like that anywhere near the office of presidency, or any position of power.

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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I, too, thought Biden's reply on abortion was really good. To me it makes sense that you can have certain religious beliefs, but know when to draw the line with legislation, ie. not mixing politics and religion.

Personally I thought both individuals did well in the debate. Biden had a strong presence and some good replies to Ryan's answers. Ryan also came off as a very good public speaker. His answers did feel quite as rehearsed as some of Biden's (there were a couple times when Biden stumbled and it felt like he was trying to remember the wording of his pre-planned answer).

I browsed over some of the fact checking on the debate, and as expected, everyone more or less just picked stats they liked regardless of their validity.

I know the news commented a bit on Biden smiling so much, and while that was a bit odd early in the debate, it wasn't that bad later on. I though Biden noticeably improved as the debate went on. I didn't like his interruptions, though.

And the moderator did a great job. Much better than the guy in the first presidential debate.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:33 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Imposing your religious beliefs into politics is what the Taliban do. I fully support the separation of Church and State. As a politician, you should base your vote and your policy on an issue on what the majority wants. That's what you're elected to do and that's what democracy is.
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:19 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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(note: I am only discussing abortion from the standpoint of politics and legislation, not whether it is right or wrong. We seem to have stayed on topic quite well thus far.)

Cerrinea wrote:
Imposing your religious beliefs into politics is what the Taliban do.
Cerrinea wrote:
As a politician, you should base your vote and your policy on an issue on what the majority wants.


Yes, the Taliban do mix beliefs with politics, as do our own politicians. Next time you listen to Pelosi or Obama speak, make sure to pay attention when they talk about the "morality" of safety net programs, the "fairness" of the rich having to pay more taxes, etc. Both Obama and Pelosi are well known for citing their faith as the reason behind their policies. Are they of the same mindset as the Taliban, as you seem suggest?

In any case, I specifically brought up Biden's abortion answer because it is not a religious issue. Even Christopher Hitchens, an outspoken athiest (to put it mildly), considered himself to be pro-life. It is an issue of human rights, and therefore can and should be discussed openly by both sides.

On your second point - the majority of Americans are in favor of prohibiting abortion in all or most cases according to polls, including Gallup and CNN. I beleive as you do Cerrinea - politicians should take note of this.


Darth Skuldren wrote:
Personally I thought both individuals did well in the debate. And the moderator did a great job.


I agree that this debate was more evenly matched (in terms of a clear winner), and that both debaters held their ground well. I do give credit to Ryan though, as his forte is fiscal policy - not foreign policy.

The moderator did a fine job, but I felt her questions were lacking. For example when she asks about Syria and Iran, she should have known both candidates would give bland answers. For obvious reasons Biden cannot talk about the administrations future plans and Ryan does not want to over-commit to anything at this stage. So the debate got a bit monotonous at times.

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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I've never heard Pelosi or Obama say the reasons for their policies are faith based. I suppose that might go back to that whole Reverend Wright deal, but typically Obama doesn't mention his religion (unless it seems like it's something that will score him a few points with the attending audience).
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 PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I've never heard Pelosi or Obama say the reasons for their policies are faith based.


Let me just post a few of the many examples.

Pelosi on the gay marriage ban - "My religion has, compels me--and I love it for it--to be against discrimination of any kind in our country, and I consider this a form of discrimination." Her legislation directly follows from this belief.

Obama - "I think my public service is part of that effort to express my Christian faith."

Obama - "Faith tells us that there is something about this world that ties our interest to the welfare of a child who can’t get the health care they need, or a parent who can’t find work after the plant shut down, or a family going hungry." Tying his faith in God to his belief in a compassionate role for government.

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