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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:00 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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On the college financial aid thing: We will only be rid of discrimination (going either way) when we stop drawing lines. I went to college with a kid who is hispanic (we really need a new term, no one I know likes that one) and his parents are loaded (one is a doctor, the other a lawyer). but he got a bunch of financial aid because of his race. Things like that aren't a solution, they're part of the problem. When we quit drawing lines between races or genders or preferences the problem will shrink but as I've said we can never be rid of it completely. Trying to fully stamp it out would be like trying to stop illegal downloading or get rid of all religion - you're trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:22 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Well, federal grants are based on financial need even for minorities. If he got private aid, well the private sector can give out grants to whoever they want to.

For example, my ex-husband got a scholarship from the Harvard Business School Alumni Assoc. of S. California when he went to the business school at Harvard. My ex is as white as they come. The scholarship wasn't based on academic performance. He got it just because they decided to give it to him.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:35 am Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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Yeah, minority scholarships are private, for the most part. It doesn't make it right, but organizations have the right to give their money to whoever they want.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Cerrinea wrote:

My ex is as white as they come.


My Grandfather was pure Swiss- so that leaves my Father and my Sister and I all pretty pail. I've been called that turn of phrase before; being told I was as white as they come. But I've got Cherokee on my Father's Mother's side of the family- enough to qualify as a member of the Delaware Tribe. And their is Souix on my mothers side, and possibly some African American as well. But you'd never know it by my skin tone.

I think that's a huge part of these kinds of issues is perception. Followed by a lack of facts. Like if people didn't know about one's ethnicity they go off of the stereotypes available to draw from. I was labeled with the single white male one up till I got married, and being married only helps come tax time and potentially for getting time off since my work loves kids. But having a family made being able to volunteer harder. I think of a few jobs I've had where I couldn't work behind the desk because it was considered woman's work and that I was needed doing the physical labor. There is often an unspoken expectation that men should do all that kind of stuff. But again I think this mainly comes from that was how I was raised. My father was a dairy farmer's kid. And a Catholic one at that so it was very much kids are seen not heard, respect your elders, and do your chores. Less time to ponder things like being discriminated against.

I find it all interesting really. Perceptions.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Since I really do know what I'm talking about when it comes to my own ex-husband, let me clarify.

My ex's paternal grandparents emigrated from Norway. His maternal grandparents emigrated from Switzerland. Both parents are first generation Americans. He really is as white as they come.

And where is the line between perception and just the best person for the job? I mean, should I always be dragging a step stool around to reach something beyond my 5'4" height or is it okay for me to ask my 6 foot son to reach up and get it? Am I being some kind of hypocritical sexist because I'm asking someone taller than me to do a job that is easier for them to do?

Btw, I worked in a field that was very female dominant. It also required a lot of physical strength. We were taught, as females, how to do it. I can lift a 200 lb, quadriplegic if the job requires it -- without injuring myself. So maybe some education would be in order.

Also men don't own the whole unspoken expectation thing. Women have a host of unspoken expectations placed on them. Guess who gets the disdain because they have to work and can't stay home with a sick child? Even though dads contribute half the chromosomes, fathers are almost never judged in the way mothers are.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Old Master Ben
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Cerrinea wrote:

Also men don't own the whole unspoken expectation thing. Women have a host of unspoken expectations placed on them. Guess who gets the disdain because they have to work and can't stay home with a sick child? Even though dads contribute half the chromosomes, fathers are almost never judged in the way mothers are.


Which is awful. Recent generations of fathers have a lot to answer for, in my opinion. They should contribute equally and be judged equally.


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:45 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth_Henning
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Dancelittleewok wrote:

Darth Henning wrote:
I fully support addressing the historical gender and racial discrimination that have existed. But there's also such a thing as being reactionary and going too far in the other direction.


What type of policy would you have instead?


How about one where people earn money (or scholarships, employment opportunities, college enrollment etc.) based purely on an objective assessment of merit. Be it hours worked and quality of work done, or GPA/extracurriculars, without the slightest analysis of age, race or gender?

Personally I fully support having all applicants to a college or job be assigned a number, and the application being assessed without the assessors knowing anything about that person's demographic information. Same for assessment and calculation of salary.

Yes, that leaves the potential for bias in interview evaluation, but there's a method called the "Multiple Mini-Interview" that generally controls for that bias (if imperfectly).

I think taking these traditional biases completely out of the equation is best. That way it neither perpetuates the long-standing prejudices which still exist, nor risks becoming reactionary in reversing them.

Not foolproof, but an improvement.


Darth Skuldren wrote:
I heard in the news today that there's a case in Texas where someone is suing a university for giving minorities advantages in enrollment, and that the case might actually have a chance of winning, which could overrule the standard for all colleges across the country.


I was going to bring that up, but forgot. Something I'm very interested to see the result of.


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Quote:
How about one where people earn money (or scholarships, employment opportunities, college enrollment etc.) based purely on an objective assessment of merit. Be it hours worked and quality of work done, or GPA/extracurriculars, without the slightest analysis of age, race or gender?


Because, for one thing, the playing field isn't level yet. It's getting there, but that was the reason for affirmative action and other programs, to level the playing field.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:02 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Cerrinea wrote:
Quote:
How about one where people earn money based purely on an objective assessment of merit.

Because, for one thing, the playing field isn't level yet.


The thing is, there are no good ways to measure the "playing field." We arbitrarily hand out scholarships, or whatever else, with no specific goals in mind. And furthermore, we are ruining others' lives in our aimless attempt to somehow make reparations for something they had nothing to do with. How do you rectify that?

I agree with Darth_Henning's solutions, but unfortunately it is highly unlikely, as racism is deep rooted in certain institutions. The perpetrators and methods may have changed, but the injustice is all the same.

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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:08 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dancelittleewok
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Autobon wrote:
Cerrinea wrote:
Quote:
How about one where people earn money based purely on an objective assessment of merit.

Because, for one thing, the playing field isn't level yet.


The thing is, there are no good ways to measure the "playing field." We arbitrarily hand out scholarships, or whatever else, with no specific goals in mind. And furthermore, we are ruining others' lives in our aimless attempt to somehow make reparations for something they had nothing to do with.


You could measure it statically. When there's money involved, there are records. I disagree with you when you say there's no specific goal. Ultimately, equality is the goal. Discrimination is in the present. If nothing is done to change it, it will be our future.
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Last edited by Dancelittleewok on Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:24 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Dancelittleewok wrote:
I disagree with you when you say there's no specific goal. Ultimately, equality is the goal. Discrimination is in present.


Achieving "equality" is incredibly nebulous. When I mentioned specifics, I was looking for a certain value that would satisfy the goal of equality, and thus end affirmative action. There exists no such definition - it is aimless.

Trying to solve past discrimination with discrimination is unproductive, and quite frankly, reprehensible.

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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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If the organization is private, we have no control, nor should we, over how they hand out scholarships and grants. I mean if I want to hand out grants to left-handed students, that's my right to do so. If it's my money, it honestly isn't anyone else's business.

Government money (tax dollars) for grants and loans can be tracked.

Quote:
Trying to solve past discrimination with discrimination is unproductive, and quite frankly, reprehensible.


There are multiple reports out there on how past discrimination still affects the equality of minorities today. As well, we're talking about present day discrimination that still exists. While you're entitled to your opinion, what I find reprehensible is the denial problem still exists or isn't as bad as it really is. The opinion that somehow white males have it so bad is blatantly ridiculous. Yes, some individuals have it worse, but as a group, white males are still the most entitled group in the U.S.
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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Autobon
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Cerrinea wrote:
There are multiple reports out there on how past discrimination still affects the equality of minorities today.


And after decades of trying to solve this problem with more discrimination, what have we achieved?

Cerrinea wrote:
Yes, some individuals have it worse, but as a group, white males are still the most entitled group in the U.S.


Do you want a society where there is no place for the individual? I don’t. I guess I naively continue to cling onto a belief that no racial or ethnic group deserves preferential treatment or a mandated advantage. It just blows my mind that in 2012, we think of discrimination as a viable solution to problems.

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 PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:35 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Either present some viable evidence that white males are as a group discriminated against or don't expect a response to your straw man argument.
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 PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:20 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Not to call you out auto, but you are talking about discrimination not being tolerable, when previously you were asking for a clarification of terms on discrimination. I actually agree that is a good question. It's easy to see discrimination in a hypothetical situation between two different group members being compared when all other things were equal, but that is not usually the case IRL and it falls into a much greyer area.

I would say a measure of equality would be to have an institution implement a "rainbow" qouta making sure that everyone was equally represented, which would be pretty easy to do when it came to gender, but much harder to do following other successive breakdowns of group affiliation.

Let's just stick to that one for starters. Say that they have positions for 100 people and 50 of them will be males and 50 females. Just for simplicities sake of argument holding to binary gender. After the quota was filled for either grouping, would denial of further applicants in that group constitute discrimination?

What about if it was not equally divided and say that you allowed more of one group than the other. To get rid of bias say that it was blind as to which was which and they were assigned group 1 and group 2. If you had a majority of members of group 1 and filled the quota for both groups, would denial of further group 1 members, who outnumber group 2 members, be discrimination?

I don't have a clear answer to these questions. I think that's the situation and the problem.
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