Log in to check your private messages
School Shooting
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove View previous topic :: View next topic  
 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:53 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

Caedus, they don't even have to get guns illegally. They can just go to a gun show and legally buy guns without a background check. That's a loophole that needs to be closed.

Screening is a good start, but follow up care is critical. Good psych care is an astronomical expense. Even if you do have insurance, most coverage is poor, because it's usually a long-term, expensive proposition, and insurance companies don't want to pay. If you don't have private funds, you usually get a 3-day to a week stay where you're doped up to the gills and shoved out of the facility.

Unfortunately, what often happens is the person with issues ends up in the legal system because of behavior issues that are a byproduct of the mental illness -- and I don't mean drastic crimes such as murder. Jail and prison are becoming our de facto psych facilities. The number of inmates in the U.S. with psychiatric disorders is about 1.25 million.

this is compounded by the fact that you cannot force a mentally ill person to get psych treatment unless they are an imminent danger to themselves or others. Then they can be involuntarily committed for 72 hours -- if there's a bed available. If not, they go to jail.

As for legislating guns, while we do have a bill of rights, the Supreme Court has already ruled that reasonable legislation is legal. So yes gun control can be legislated. And under the previous ban on assault weapons, gun violence did decrease. There's a lot of talk that it didn't have an effect, but that's just misinformation.

the thing is, it's harder to get a driver's license in this country than it is to buy guns.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:00 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Reepicheep wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
Unfortunately as much as I think we need more money in mental health care part of our Bill of Rights can' be changed, so while we can regulate what is available to the public we still have to allow people to own guns.


Allowing people to own assault rifles is ridiculous to me. What else are they going to use them for?

Caedus_16 wrote:
I do, however, think they need a stronger mental health screen for it. But even if its illegal people will get their hands on them. Pot and cocaine are illegal, yet I know people who do the former constantly and I know some who do the latter fairly regularly. When we banned alcohol we just had a huge increase in trafficking and such, and indeed it worked its way into things like gatherings that also led to an increase in prostitution and drug use. So we repealed it. Legalizing marijuana is making it less of a taboo thing, but with guns there has to be more regulation. I'm hoping eventually it will be required to have a full psychiatric evaluation to buy one and that buying a gun safe will be mandatory so that kids won't have access to them.


I hear the "people will get guns anyway" argument a lot, but I still think it would help somewhat. I wouldn't know where to begin looking for a shady arms dealer, so I doubt I'd be able to get my hands on an assualt rifle even if I wanted one. Also guns are a different thing than alcohol and drugs. I imagine less people would run the risk of getting caught with illegal merchandise without an addiction to it (though I suppose some people are addicted to guns Rolling Eyes ).

I f people absolutely need guns, I like your idea of psychiatric evaluation... except that people would just steal each others guns. I still think an outright ban would be the best.


A shady arms dealer isn't really that hard to find, I live in a smaller area of the midwest and we've got people who will sell guns to those who can't get them due to felon status or not passing the conceal and carry classes.

People borrowing each others guns will happen, of course, but with the school shooting things the problems start both in the classroom and at home. If we aimed at the mental health evaluations then we wouldn't have the problems we have, and that also lends a bit towards the "people will just borrow them" argument.

I believe in the right to own one, but I believe it should be a heck of a lot harder to get one. I don't own one because I don't need one but if I lived somewhere where I felt I might need one I'd buy one. I have my conceal and carry for other reasons, but a gun just isn't necessary at this point in my life. I have friends who own guns simply to 'exercise their right' but they don't need them. They shoot at cans on their land outside city limits. They don't even hunt to them. So that, to me, is a waste of time and money but they aren't people I'm worried about. I think its pointless for them to own them but they are mentally competent and for all the pointlessness they are ridiculously careful, have purchased full gun safes, and always unload everything when they come home. They are also fairly conservative and do not partake of marijuana or alcohol or anything that would inhibit mental faculties. They just aren't part of the problem.

We have issues with mental health. Raising the requirements and making people get full psychiatric screens would be the only way we can legally get this taken care of, we just aren't going to ban them, legally America can't. Maybe we might want to, but we can't.

Incidentally I agree with you about the assault rifles. Having those because they are cool isn't a reason to have them, no one needs to go deer hunting with a full-on auto. I hope that they take that off the market but they just aren't going to.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:11 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

Quote:
I hope that they take that off the market but they just aren't going to.


Actually, they were virtually off the market under the last ban. Then the ban lapsed under George W. and never got renewed.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:15 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  GrandMaster
Master
Master

Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 508
Location: Earth Jedi Temple

The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.

I don't think that the 2nd Amendment should be changed, just pointing out that it could be.
_________________
"But it was so artistically done."

“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

“Eventually, we all betray something, Tahiri. It’s what you stay true to that counts.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:09 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:10 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Darth Skuldren
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 6465
Location: Missouri

As a moderator, for the time being, I say we let this thread be. We've got plans to re-open the Meditation Grove pretty soon anyways. Until then, this is a good place to voice our opinions and this is certainly a topic for discussion.
_________________

"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:35 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

Cerrinea wrote:
Quote:
I hope that they take that off the market but they just aren't going to.


Actually, they were virtually off the market under the last ban. Then the ban lapsed under George W. and never got renewed.


Huh, didn't know that. I'm in my mid twenties so I'm mostly known Bush, or at least been old enough to understand what's going on for the Bush era. I remember Clinton but mostly the sex scandal thing (also my name is Clint so the Bill and Monica jokes abounded growing up and that kinda focused on one thing). I would love to see things as excessive as assault rifles off the market,
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:01 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Jedi Joe
Master
Master

Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 1524

Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.


Yeah, we're already having enough issues with free speech thanks to SOPA and such. Lets not go so far as to repeal ammendments...
_________________


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:14 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  GrandMaster
Master
Master

Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 508
Location: Earth Jedi Temple

Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.


I agree with that idea, but the Bill of Rights can be changed - the 2nd amendment is no different from any other amendment, and can be changed like any other amendment or any other part of the Constitution.
_________________
"But it was so artistically done."

“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

“Eventually, we all betray something, Tahiri. It’s what you stay true to that counts.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:49 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Cerrinea
Master
Master

Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 1491

The 2nd amendment doesn't need to be changed. The Supreme Court has already ruled that guns are subject to reasonable restriction. That's why the NRA did not challenge the last ban on assault weapons.
_________________
Roqoo Depot co-founder.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:35 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

GrandMaster wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.


I agree with that idea, but the Bill of Rights can be changed - the 2nd amendment is no different from any other amendment, and can be changed like any other amendment or any other part of the Constitution.


No, it really can't. Like I said, that's the whole point of the Bill of Rights. Not one of those 10 amendments can be altered in any way. They are up for interpretation, but they cannot be re-worded or re-worked in any way.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:59 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  GrandMaster
Master
Master

Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 508
Location: Earth Jedi Temple

Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.


I agree with that idea, but the Bill of Rights can be changed - the 2nd amendment is no different from any other amendment, and can be changed like any other amendment or any other part of the Constitution.


No, it really can't. Like I said, that's the whole point of the Bill of Rights. Not one of those 10 amendments can be altered in any way. They are up for interpretation, but they cannot be re-worded or re-worked in any way.


But they can be altered and even repealed. The 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights are not given special treatment. The 2nd Amendment can be changed or repealed, just like the 18th Amendment was repealed by the 21st.
_________________
"But it was so artistically done."

“No. I am Ganner. This threshold is mine. I claim it for my own. Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don’t give a damn. None shall pass.”

“Eventually, we all betray something, Tahiri. It’s what you stay true to that counts.”

"Shaken, not stirred, will get you cold water with a dash of gin and dry vermouth. The reason you stir it with a special spoon is so not to chip the ice. James is ordering a weak martini and being snooty about it."


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:04 pm Reply with quote  
Message
  Caedus_16
Master
Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4770
Location: Korriban

[quote="GrandMaster"]
Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
GrandMaster wrote:
The Bill of Rights can be changed - it is just a list of amendments. It would be incredibly difficult to do so, but not impossible.


Actually that's kind of the point of the Bill of Rights, its supposed to be the only ten amendments that cannot be changed in any way. If we get rid of the 2nd amendment it throws all the others up in the air, including Free Speech which means all print media and all digital media will come into question.


I agree with that idea, but the Bill of Rights can be changed - the 2nd amendment is no different from any other amendment, and can be changed like any other amendment or any other part of the Constitution.


No, it really can't. Like I said, that's the whole point of the Bill of Rights. Not one of those 10 amendments can be altered in any way. They are up for interpretation, but they cannot be re-worded or re-worked in any way.


The Bill or Rights are indeed part of the Constitution. They have not been changed, however. Amendments can repeal each other, but the point of The Bill of Rights is to guarantee basic human freedoms and what it comes down to is that they are allowed to defend themselves, they are allowed to say what they wish/worship what they wish/be what they wish, and states cannot change them. On a national level it is possible, but unlikely they will change them. To change any of them (which are meant to be guaranteed human rights) negates the meaning of the rest, which is why no one is willing to touch them. So while I guess I should have worded my point better here it is - You cannot get rid of the 2nd amendment or you bring everyone out of the woodwork. You'd see those who want to destroy religion, those who want to search without a warrant (incidentally the 5th amendment will be up to get rid of which would allow us to become a police state). The 9th and 10th amendments allowing us to protect ourselves is unspecified situations will be out the door.


In the news of gun ownership I present this...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/2/

This is 9 years old so it is no longer applicable, but it raises thoughts (especially on how accurate it may be) but its thought provoking. I'm not at all against much stricter regulation on guns, this just made me think a little bit about it all, especially our justice systems.
_________________
Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger

 PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:58 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Life Is The Path
Master
Master

Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Posts: 3874
Location: In a galaxy far, far - No, I'm behind you! Got you! Boo!

Rather depressing: Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/gun-deaths-a-familiar-american-experience/
_________________
I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it. These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.


View user's profile Send private message

 PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:08 am Reply with quote  
Message
  Reepicheep
Master
Master

Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 6782
Location: Sailing into the unknown

Caedus_16 wrote:
A shady arms dealer isn't really that hard to find, I live in a smaller area of the midwest and we've got people who will sell guns to those who can't get them due to felon status or not passing the conceal and carry classes.

But he's still selling guns in plain sight, correct? The actual selling of assault rifles, hand guns etc. isn't illegal and doesn't need to be hidden; it's only the sales to people with felon status that needs to be hidden. But if assault rifles, hand guns etc. were illegal, a shady arms dealer would be much harder to find. Living in a country were these weapons are illegal, I wouldn't have a clue where to find them regardless of whether I have felon status or not (which I don't Wink ).
_________________

Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Post new topic   Reply to topic    The EUCantina Forums Forum Index » The Meditation Grove

Page 3 of 5
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Display posts from previous:

  

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights 2 by Scott Stubblefield