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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
A shady arms dealer isn't really that hard to find, I live in a smaller area of the midwest and we've got people who will sell guns to those who can't get them due to felon status or not passing the conceal and carry classes.

But he's still selling guns in plain sight, correct? The actual selling of assault rifles, hand guns etc. isn't illegal and doesn't need to be hidden; it's only the sales to people with felon status that needs to be hidden. But if assault rifles, hand guns etc. were illegal, a shady arms dealer would be much harder to find. Living in a country were these weapons are illegal, I wouldn't have a clue where to find them regardless of whether I have felon status or not (which I don't Wink ).


Thanks to the internet and such its not hard to find weaponry, and as Cerrinea said there are guns and ammo shows that sell without a background check, collectors and such, to anyone who can afford it.
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 PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Finding guns off the market (ie. illegal or less than legal) only requires than you approach the less upstanding part of your local society. If you've got shady friends or know shady people, you can find shady guns. People rob houses and steal the guns all the time. Those guns in up in the hands of criminals, and they pass them around.

Now I'm not familiar with how well law enforcement does on cracking down on these people. Obviously they can't just go through a rough neighborhood and just start searching houses. But I know they could certainly do more to make sure convicted felons aren't allowed to buy ammunition.

I also think that if people want to go forward with reasonable legislation, they should focus on enforcing the existing laws. For instance it's illegal to purchase a firearm if you have any mental issues. The problem is they expect you to answer truthfully by check marking a box. If they actual required a mental examination of the purchaser, it would have a lot more meaning.

Another thing they could do is crack down on the transfer of weapons without federal background checks. I think a viable option would be making the owner of a firearm legally liable for whatever crime the purchaser commits if they do not first go through a federal background check and vouch for their mental stability.

It should also go without saying that anyone who has a person in their home who has known mental issues should not have any unsecured guns in the household (they should probably not have any guns in the household period, but under certain circumstances, that might not be applicable).

With all of that said, I think the assault rifle ban is a joke. People want something done, but an assault rifle ban is nothing more than a worthless political ploy. An assault rifle ban is geared toward weapons that "look dangerous." What people really want, if they stop to think about it, is a high capacity magazine ban. The two issues should not be confused and they should not be merged together. If people will drop the assault rifle ban talk and just promote a high capacity magazine ban, more pro-gun people would listen.

Even then, I think at the very least people should be able to apply for high capacity magazine permit. It would require a federal background check, finger printing, sheriff's signature, and a mental health examination.

That's my opinion. I also agree with increased funding of the mental health sector.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:18 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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The real problem is the gun obsessed ethos America has. Little by little this has to be remedied, although I don't know how you could do it practically. A little more trust has to be placed in the police and the law. I understand the concern of the government having guns and the people not having guns, but when you enter society, you surrender your "right" to personal retribution and give it to the state. You can't have people carrying AK-47s out in the open (as the NRA envisions) ready to take the law into their own hands in a civilized society. If the NRA honestly wants this, they can leave the States and start their own anarchist nation on some island somewhere.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Reepicheep wrote:
The real problem is the gun obsessed ethos America has. Little by little this has to be remedied, although I don't know how you could do it practically. A little more trust has to be placed in the police and the law. I understand the concern of the government having guns and the people not having guns, but when you enter society, you surrender your "right" to personal retribution and give it to the state. You can't have people carrying AK-47s out in the open (as the NRA envisions) ready to take the law into their own hands in a civilized society. If the NRA honestly wants this, they can leave the States and start their own anarchist nation on some island somewhere.


Remember, the NRA isn't all of us.

Like I've said I don't own a gun, but if I lived in a place with a higher crime rate you can darn well be sure that I would buy one. Its less that we're a gun obsessed society but more that some people simply just want it for the security. I very much agree with you that we shouldn't have full auto rifles in America, but a handgun can do just as much damage. The problem is you won't ever get rid of that. Its not about the government having all the guns and us having nothing, if we turned into a dictatorship I'd charge with sharp sticks. But having the right to defend myself is nice to have. I have my conceal and carry (no gun, but I have 8 inch vambraces) and I don't see it leaving. The thing is that in the U.S. we have this right and its considered part of our most basic rights (which probably should have been better worded to mean "defend ourselves" but there you have it.

And in turn the way the world is turning most people think that us wonky Christians should go form our own island of crazy somewhere. Heck, we slaughtered Muslims in the millions back in the day. Its the person pulling the trigger, not the trigger itself. Hence my statements that we need better mental health care.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Remember, the NRA isn't all of us.

Oh, I know. It wasn't a dig at anyone here. Wink

Caedus_16 wrote:
Like I've said I don't own a gun, but if I lived in a place with a higher crime rate you can darn well be sure that I would buy one. Its less that we're a gun obsessed society but more that some people simply just want it for the security.

I can't help but think that the need for security would be less if there was much less gun obsession. I feel perfectly safe in my home with a baseball bat, a couple of daggers and my own two fists, but then I live in a country where assault rifles and handguns are illegal and with much less fascination with guns. Getting over the reliance on and fascination with guns wouldn't happen over night, but I think it's something America should work towards. And that starts with much tighter gun control.


Caedus_16 wrote:
I very much agree with you that we shouldn't have full auto rifles in America, but a handgun can do just as much damage.

Agreed. Hand guns should be illegal as well, especially because of how hard to use they are without regular practice. I could see the modern equivalent of an 18th century musket (the kind of weapon the second amendment was presumably written for) being approved for civilian use, but nothing more.

EDIT: Muskets, because they take 15-20 seconds to reload and would cause less casualties. The only difference I would make is to give the modern equivalent better aim as the old ones were notorious for their poor aim.

Caedus_16 wrote:
Its the person pulling the trigger, not the trigger itself. Hence my statements that we need better mental health care.


I definitley agree with you there as well.
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Last edited by Reepicheep on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Since the Meditation Grove is open now, I'm going to go ahead and move this thread there.
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 PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:48 pm Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I can't speak for other countries, states, or even cities, but in St. Louis, it can be dangerous at night. There's a lot of violence in the city. If you get attacked, there's no time to call for help and you ability to run for help is next to nil. Your best defense is a concealed carry handgun. By law, you have to take a concealed carry course, you have to go to your local sheriff's office to get a federal background check, finger printed, and the approval of your local sheriff. Once all this is done, you can then get your license.

If you have the desire to protect yourself, and since the right to bear arms is covered by the Bill of Rights, I see no reason why there is anything wrong with this or why it should be stopped and handguns outlawed.

I've been doing a little bit of reading on the subject of school shootings and I discovered something I did not know before. Both Columbine and the Virginia Tech school had armed guards. In both cases the guards were not in the building where the shooting took place and their ability to respond to the incident was too slow to stop the carnage. While there are a lot of people who don't like the idea, this is still a pretty good reason for allowing teachers to conceal carry if they want. In these shootings, teachers are often among the targets, and we be the fastest response to an issue.

Regardless, the situation is complex and certainly requires more than one field of approach. Lots of factors need to be addressed, especially mental healthcare and awareness.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:06 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Actually the guards at Columbine engaged the shooters twice but were unable to stop them. this is straight from the police report. If the guards couldn't stop them, why would anyone think that armed teachers could? Arming teachers is just such a bad idea.

I think there needs to be a lot more discussion on solutions to the problem of gun violence, but I don't see any viable solution that excludes banning certain guns and the amount of ammo in a magazine or drum.

I whole heartedly reject Wayne LaPierre's suggestion of a national data base of the mentally ill. First off, it stigmatizes all mentally ill individuals. Secondly, a national database that actually tracks all gun and ammo purchases would be much more about addressing the real problem. And close the gun show loophole.

We're never going to be able to eliminate all violence. Mankind has never been able to do that. But that doesn't mean we throw our hands up in the air, and do nothing to minimize it.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Cerrinea wrote:
I whole heartedly reject Wayne LaPierre's suggestion of a national data base of the mentally ill. First off, it stigmatizes all mentally ill individuals. Secondly, a national database that actually tracks all gun and ammo purchases would be much more about addressing the real problem. And close the gun show loophole.

We're never going to be able to eliminate all violence. Mankind has never been able to do that. But that doesn't mean we throw our hands up in the air, and do nothing to minimize it.


I'll state this - I am a mentally sound person. I'm logical, analytic, and generally ok. But we all have bad times where we're down, reckless, hurt, and angry. I've pushed for mental health stuff as a counter to gun violence, but that doesn't account for darker moments in life.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
this is still a pretty good reason for allowing teachers to conceal carry if they want. In these shootings, teachers are often among the targets, and we be the fastest response to an issue.


In theory that would be fine but are the teachers really instructed not just how to fire but also how to engage a target shooting at them? I wouldn't honestly trust anyone who isn't police, military, or ex-military/police with a gun in that situation since they have no training on how to react and might fire wildly because of fear.

But mostly I'm against teachers carrying weapons because at my old high school we had a series of gang fights (about 10 students in the largest) breaking out during school during my final year there (which is far from being either tough rural or urban ghetto and are primarily upper middle class kids). These were the few tough guys from either a rural gang or an urban gang. To that point: how do we know these guys couldn't quickly overpower a lone teacher and then use that gun to make a gang fight worse? Not every teacher is going to be physically powerful so any teacher that is not physically strong but carrying could become a potential target for any tough guy looking for a gun.

I'm also against it because what if we have a teacher who has a religious objection to violence? Do we discriminate in our hiring practices so only people who have no moral objections to violence can be hired because they can carry or do we accept that every day children are in greater danger in that teacher's class room because they're among the few teachers not carrying and thus their classroom will be singled out as a high priority target by any gunman who plans their attack?
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:10 pm Reply with quote  
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  Jedi Joe
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Caedus_16 wrote:
Cerrinea wrote:
I whole heartedly reject Wayne LaPierre's suggestion of a national data base of the mentally ill. First off, it stigmatizes all mentally ill individuals. Secondly, a national database that actually tracks all gun and ammo purchases would be much more about addressing the real problem. And close the gun show loophole.

We're never going to be able to eliminate all violence. Mankind has never been able to do that. But that doesn't mean we throw our hands up in the air, and do nothing to minimize it.


I'll state this - I am a mentally sound person. I'm logical, analytic, and generally ok. But we all have bad times where we're down, reckless, hurt, and angry. I've pushed for mental health stuff as a counter to gun violence, but that doesn't account for darker moments in life.


Very true. Even completely sane people can "fall off the rails" so to speak. That's just human nature.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:04 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Jedi Joe wrote:
Caedus_16 wrote:
Cerrinea wrote:
I whole heartedly reject Wayne LaPierre's suggestion of a national data base of the mentally ill. First off, it stigmatizes all mentally ill individuals. Secondly, a national database that actually tracks all gun and ammo purchases would be much more about addressing the real problem. And close the gun show loophole.

We're never going to be able to eliminate all violence. Mankind has never been able to do that. But that doesn't mean we throw our hands up in the air, and do nothing to minimize it.


I'll state this - I am a mentally sound person. I'm logical, analytic, and generally ok. But we all have bad times where we're down, reckless, hurt, and angry. I've pushed for mental health stuff as a counter to gun violence, but that doesn't account for darker moments in life.


Very true. Even completely sane people can "fall off the rails" so to speak. That's just human nature.


As much as I'm for keeping guns and focusing on control and mental health I've been in the dregs mentally and emotionally before, I wouldn't have wanted me with a gun. I don't think I'm capable of harming anyone, but I wouldn't ever want to be in a position where I'm fragile and I could.
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:12 am Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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Let's not forget about Fort Hood: 13 killed and 29 wounded.

Virginia Tech had it's own police force. 32 killed and 17 wounded.

Columbine guards unsuccessfully engaged the shooters twice: 13 killed and 21 wounded.

In 2012 alone there have been 121 killed in mass shootings in the U.S.

1976-2010: 2,956 killed in mass shootings.

A mass killing is defined by the FBI as 4 or more victims. So this doesn't count the thousands and thousands of other gun homicides.

In 2011 there were 8, 583 gun homicides.
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:51 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Cerrinea wrote:
Quote:
The point is, terrible as they are, school shootings will always happen and we can't forget that.


Imo, people need to stop thinking this way. School shootings didn't happen when I was a kid so this isn't something that's always been with us and therefore we just need to accept it.


This made me curious about the history of these kinds of tragedies. How far back have they been recorded and the like.

Though I to a degree agree with the concept that crazy can't be prevented or forseen in all cases, and that we can't "idiot proof" the system- it would be one of those situations where we border on trading Freedom for Security. (though I'm 100% for a metal detector at EVERY door in EVERY School.) I just always worry when we try to add laws to prevent something.

Like all those comments about God needing to be let back into school. 1) Whose God? 2) IMO God's in the hearts of those who believe and no rule can keep THAT out of school.

I just don't see a simple solution to make the crazies go away and stay at home.

Cerrinea wrote:
That aside, I'm just sick about this. I can't even put it in words. I can't even begin to fathom the mind that could murder 6 & 7 yr olds. I hurt so badly for the parents and family of these children, and the families of the school staff.


The closest I can get to beginning to fathom the kind of thinking it might require is Anakin Skywalker in the High Council chamber murdering younglings, and even that scene brings me to tears. I think there is a fundamental reason people get so emotional when children die- we know how tragically wrong it is for a life to end with so much wasted potential. It's a multiple crime in that regard. You not only take the life- but deny the world any achievements that that life might have made.

Times like this I think it's important to keep those you love close and foremost in your thoughts and Prayers, cause you never know when those you love or yourself might get taken from this Earth.
Hogy wrote:
^I know you were the one who brought this thread to life Alan. Cantina keeps track of the authors after all.

My post was not intended as a personal attack/offense against you. In fact you are one of the nicest persons here on the EUC forums. You made a thread here and that is all.

But I (ME, Myself) do feel like sicko and psycho for not being able to talk about my vegan cousin (or whatever) in the Med Grove, but can talk stuff like this here.

And this is what I feel is wrong here. This is why I call ALL of us monsters for.

I have hope in Mods and Admins though.


I'm late to the game here, but I'll address anyway. The reasons behind the Grove staying locked were important, but we also felt that the Shootings were something the forum users needed to discuss right now. Since the Grove was re opened we have moved this thread where it DOES BELONG.

But at that time Mos Eisley was the best Forum to use with the Grove out of commission. We weren't sure if the Grove was even coming back- which would make Mos Eisley THE PLACE to talk all non SW stuff.

But for now all is back to how it should be.

And further the Grove was locked not so much due to the topics in the Grove, but more the reactions it was causing by the interactions of the posters. It was starting to create issues between posters, and the last thing the staff wants is something that is taking away from the Fandom process that is the forum experience.

But you're feelings are noted, and we hope that as of now everything is working out well in regards to this thread, its new home, and the Grove itself.

Thanks again everyone for being so understanding with the delays it took with the Grove, but we the staff felt it was more important to do it right than to rush the Grove back into service.

Sorry for any inconveniences in the interim.



All that said. I dedicate the next few hours or minutes silence between my post and the next to the victims of school (and any) shootings in our world. My heart and prayers go out to those who fell, and the loved ones left behind to mourn.
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 PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:46 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Here's an idea from an ex-SEAL that does not involve arming teachers with guns.

Quote:
"You have to create a first line of defense," he said. That, he said, should include training teachers and school officials how to react to an attack. Then schools should install ballistic doors with magnetic locks, put Kevlar blankets in every school room and even put Kevlar sheeting on desks for kids and teachers to hide behind.

"You want to have a way to let teachers and principals buy time for the cops to arrive and deal with the active shooter," he said.

Also, teachers should receive a TASER, with training, to shock an attacker. "It's easy to use and very effective," said McClellan.


via The Examiner
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