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Palpatine vs Windu (who won if either?)
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:05 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mara Jade Skywalker
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Mad Wook wrote:
I'd say the novel nailed it though. And Fisto's head on the desk was just icing on the cake.


The book made this scene how it should have been. Epic. Granted...the book made every scene epic.
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:54 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mad Wook
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Mara Jade Skywalker wrote:
Granted...the book made every scene epic.


Very true. It's still one of my all-time favorite books.


And I really liked what Salaris had to say on Agen and Saesee. I also think some of the situation could be attributed to the Jedi not having faced any true Sith Lords in a thousand years. These guys had no idea what to expect and Palpatine flying at them and roaring like a demon was definitely not expected.


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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:21 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Salaris Vorn wrote:


This is a very good point and one of the reasons I think the Jedi having a moment of incompetancy is plausible. For example, they could have been so sure of their numbers that they let their guard down or weren't at full combat alert until it was too late.

skimming Saesee and Agen's wookieepedia entries I had some additional thoughts that I'd add to my original analysis: the book apparently attributes Saesee's death to being distracted by trying to read Palp's mind. His saber style seems to be heavily influenced by using his telepathic abilities. So it is plausible that he had "over specialized" his saber form to the point that he was entirely dependant on reading the mind of an opponent and couldn't easily adapt his style to a situation where he was completely incapable of reading his enemy's intentions. (this would explain his obvious hesitation in the movie)

Agen is a bit more difficult to reconcile. However, it sounds like he prefered the more athletic forms. In that regard it is possible his failure to block was a case of instintively preparing to block in his preferred form but he checked himself realzing the close quarters would result in him parrying into a fellow Jedi. The second or so of hesitation as his brain shifted gears to another stance more appropriate to the situation is what gets him killed. In this case Palps could have known that if he had instantly attacked Agen would have instinctively parried in his preferred stance. However, by windingup Palps knew he would draw Agen off guard by giving Agen enough time to realize the danger a parry with his preferred form posed to his allies and in the second or so Agen spends shifting his mindset to a new stance Palps gets his opportunity to strike.

Incompetancy? Maybe. Lack of adequate preperation and/or not being flexible enough to adapt to the situation (similar to what Life noted about Yoda)? Definetely.


That's very interesting, and thank you, Vorn. I could also see Palpatine employing some form of ability to mess with Saesee's own ability, or maybe even to present misinformation to him, to give him that opening. Agen, yes, I see how that is more difficult. I like your idea, though.
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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This is, and will remain, one of the hardest things to anwser.
On one hand we have the movie and our eyes, we have GL commentary, and we have Stover and this (which took me sweet time to do):

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


This remains a thing I can't trully anwser.


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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:19 am Reply with quote  
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  GreekGirl
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Wow this is a really tricky one. I would say that Palpatine won this battle, but one would never know. I took me quite a while to figure out my thoughts, and still I don't know!? Razz Embarassed
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Bane
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From what I saw in the film of the Yoda/palp fight, Yoda had gained the upperhand when he was countering Palpatine's lightning and was the one pushing forward, whilst Palpatine was clearly leaning back. Also Yoda's facial expression was that of a determined fighter in control, whilst Palpatine's face was going wide with fear. This clearly shows Yoda had the advantage and it looks like his force burst pushed Palpatine back but since he was countering Palpatine's force lightning when he finally overpowered him, that he was blasted slightly back as well.

Should also take note on both combatants position, Yoda was on the lip of the pad, whilst Palpatine was inside of it. Yet Yoda didn't fall back as far even though he's smaller and was on the lip. He simply couldn't gain traction to pull himself up--due to his physical restraint of short arms--and thus fell.

Also Palpatine was on the run nearly the whole fight and was on the defensive for much of the battle. All of this and the end of the fight, to me at least doesn't show Yoda losing, at least not in a technical way.

Plus I think it's safe to assume Yoda was well past his prime at the time. A couple hundred years younger, I think he wins decisively. I mean the guy died of old age just 20+ years later lol.

I know this is a very old topic just hadn't got around to it, but I saw a few posts saying Palpatine won without really any evidence backing it up. Felt the urge to say what I think.

The Mace fight is a tough one, plenty of good points for both.


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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:27 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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Lord Bane wrote:
From what I saw in the film of the Yoda/palp fight, Yoda had gained the upperhand when he was countering Palpatine's lightning and was the one pushing forward, whilst Palpatine was clearly leaning back. Also Yoda's facial expression was that of a determined fighter in control, whilst Palpatine's face was going wide with fear. This clearly shows Yoda had the advantage and it looks like his force burst pushed Palpatine back but since he was countering Palpatine's force lightning when he finally overpowered him, that he was blasted slightly back as well.

Should also take note on both combatants position, Yoda was on the lip of the pad, whilst Palpatine was inside of it. Yet Yoda didn't fall back as far even though he's smaller and was on the lip. He simply couldn't gain traction to pull himself up--due to his physical restraint of short arms--and thus fell.

Also Palpatine was on the run nearly the whole fight and was on the defensive for much of the battle. All of this and the end of the fight, to me at least doesn't show Yoda losing, at least not in a technical way.

Plus I think it's safe to assume Yoda was well past his prime at the time. A couple hundred years younger, I think he wins decisively. I mean the guy died of old age just 20+ years later lol.

I know this is a very old topic just hadn't got around to it, but I saw a few posts saying Palpatine won without really any evidence backing it up. Felt the urge to say what I think.

The Mace fight is a tough one, plenty of good points for both.


If you go by the movies only sure, but in the EU it is pretty much established that Yoda did in fact lose.


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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Doesn't running tend to imply losing?
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Lord Bane
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Hogy wrote:

If you go by the movies only sure, but in the EU it is pretty much established that Yoda did in fact lose.


Well, The Revenge of The Sith book leaves out parts of the movie, so I'm definitely not going to judge what happened by the book. For example, I just flipped to the beginning of the Yoda/Palp fight in the book and immediately noticed a scene he left out. When Yoda first enters the chamber, Palpatine attempts to flee in the movie, but in the book he doesn't include that at all. He even describes scenes different from how they happened in the movies. He has Yoda get blown off the podium as soon as he jumps up. That is not what happens AT ALL. Thus, I for sure am not going to go by the EU.

I'll go by what I saw in the movie, which shows Yoda in control at the end. He falls down, and considering his age and how he got up, the fall obviously took alot out of him. Plus there was clones coming, he knew at that point he had to flee.

So, yes, Palpatine won in a way. But he didn't actually win the fight. Not from what I saw.


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 PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:27 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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Technically it was a tactical draw since no one was hurt in the fight. However the strategic victory is harder to measure. In the short run, Palpatine won since he gets to go on and leader the Empire and oppress the galaxy while Yoda has to go into exile. In the long run, Yoda wins since his survival allows him to train Luke who ends up being the catalyst for Palpatine's death.

It's been a while since I've watched the fight, but I do remember Palpatine struggling here and there, even though George made comments that he wanted to show just how powerful Palpatine was. Regardless, Yoda looked pretty scared when scurrying through the tunnels.
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:40 pm Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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Well the bla bla bla Just didn' t have it.
He never had it.
He'd LOSTst before he was born.....

Well that kinda did it for me.


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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Arawn_Fenn wrote:
DarthMRN wrote:
Palp beat Yoda who canonically is the more powerful.

"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

"Because, my little green friend, I have a whole Empire I can throw at you, in stead of personally fighting the single greatest threat to my rule in all the galaxy. The fact that you need to even ask that question just proves why I won".

Besides, he is waay too jolly during that fight that you'll convince me he felt threatened once he knew what he was dealing with. Well, except for the part where he had his own powers thrown back at him, which doesn't actually speak in Yoda's favor as much as it does Palp's.
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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:28 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
Mad Wook wrote:
If he took out Kit, Agen, and Saesee that fast


Arguably Palps had the tactical advantage in that situation which plays to any lone swordsman's advantage if they have enough skill. Those kind of close quarters pretty much limits you to only the most basic fighting stance and moves. More agressive, athletic or acrobatic fighting styles could very well have just resulted in Jedi getting in the way of other Jedi.

I will grant Palps did a good job at manipulating Kit and Mace so that they couldn't easly take a swing at Palps without risking hitting their ally. So Palps did have decent skill.

This being said that is where I think Palps being a skilled fighter ends and pure incompetence by the Jedi begins. Palps has a noticable "windup" that should give even the most novice swordsman enough of a warning that he is going to open with a thrust and block accordingly. For one reason or another the Jedi was oblivious to this. The second Jedi Palps takes out made the mistake of 1) being in a poor defensive stance to begin with 2) upon seeing a threat he winds up to deliver his own attack (and then hesitates!) which took him out of what little defensive stance he was in. He pretty much asked Palps to kill him.

I do think towards the end Palps let Mace win for the purpose of putting on a show for Anakin. That being said there is no reason in the film to believe Mace couldn't have eventually won anyway.

(for record I'm a fencer and have learned Japanese swordfighting as well)

The notion that Jedi with the necessary reflexes and precognitive abilities to block endless volleys of blaster bolts -while quipping and joking with each other on the side- would be constrained by real life human vulnerabilities like this, is pretty damn far fetched.

So to me the equation is much simpler. Plot demands Palp be the best. Demonstrated by stupid out-of-character Jedi Masters. SW doesn't need more of an excuse than that. The end result still being that Palp was shown powerful enough to have killed Mace easy if he wanted to. Since we are given no other reason to think Mace is 20 levels higher than the rest, I mean.
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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Yet Anakin was considered far better than Obi Wan, yet Old Master Ben managed to take him out. Mace was certainly very powerful, but not as powerful as Yoda, yes, but I think the reason behind his success and Yoda's failure is their mindsets. Mace, as we know, was an adept, a master, of Vaapad. He would have probably been in a mindset similar to Palpatine's, would have been anticipating the darkness, and was, for lack of a better phrase, 'living in the present'. Yoda, however (as we learn from the book) was anticipating fighting a Sith of the old order, not one of the new. He was blind to this, and recognised too late that he was blind, and thus lost.

What the book also says is that Palp is a whirlwind of buttkicking, whose powers Mace has to Vaapad back onto itself just to stay even. Yoda wasn't as lucky.

Not that that book is trustworthy in the least.
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 PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:58 pm Reply with quote  
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  DarthMRN
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Lord Bane wrote:
From what I saw in the film of the Yoda/palp fight, Yoda had gained the upperhand when he was countering Palpatine's lightning and was the one pushing forward, whilst Palpatine was clearly leaning back. Also Yoda's facial expression was that of a determined fighter in control, whilst Palpatine's face was going wide with fear. This clearly shows Yoda had the advantage and it looks like his force burst pushed Palpatine back but since he was countering Palpatine's force lightning when he finally overpowered him, that he was blasted slightly back as well.

Sure, if you think having to throw your enemy's attack back at him to rattle him signifies having the advantage. That is about as underdog as it gets, if you ask me.

As for facial expressions, Palp is obviously supposed to be shown as far more emotional than the composed Yoda, as it should be. Palp starts laughing and grinning whenever things go a little his way, just like he gets desperate and fearful when they go a little against him. Comparing just their respective sad faces without also comparing their happy faces, massively biases the comparison. I mean, for crying out loud, when Palp is hanging from the railing he wails like a baby, even though he just made like a 20 yard drop with no problem moments earlier. Taking his facial expressions at face value (pun pun) isn't a very convincing argument.

Quote:
Should also take note on both combatants position, Yoda was on the lip of the pad, whilst Palpatine was inside of it. Yet Yoda didn't fall back as far even though he's smaller and was on the lip. He simply couldn't gain traction to pull himself up--due to his physical restraint of short arms--and thus fell.

The scene doesn't actually show how far Yoda went. The camera focuses on Palp, with Yoda's drop being implied from his precarious position.

Quote:
Also Palpatine was on the run nearly the whole fight and was on the defensive for much of the battle. All of this and the end of the fight, to me at least doesn't show Yoda losing, at least not in a technical way.

What does show Yoda losing is him falling down a distance he has proven more than able to jump back up, being unharmed and still fit enough in his old age to crawl through a tunnel to escape, yet still choosing to flee, lamenting his failure. The only technical way Yoda didn't lose, is in still being alive.
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