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Did anyone like the clone emperor?
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Did anyone like the clone emperor?
 PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:00 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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The clone emperor seems to be an albatross on the early Expanded Universe, and Dark Empire more specifically, though it has some other problems people disliked. I'm not sure I can think of anyone that ever expressed any positive emotions toward the concept.

But I liked the usage! It was a pretty neat metaphor, I think. A while back, someone pointed me toward a quote by Tom Veitch from Star Wars Galaxy magazine #13,

From my point of view, I think it’s profoundly important to “penetrate the dark side and learn its secrets.” That’s the hero’s main task, in fact — not simply killing off his enemies. A personality that is divided into warring opposites must somehow become whole and complete. Carl Jung would call it “integrating the Shadow.” The three existing Star Wars films are about the battle of the hero and the Shadow in the form of the dark father. If there are ever to be filmed sequels to the current trilogy, it would be logical and mythologically satisfying to somehow depict “integrating the Shadow.” In psychological terms, that would be inevitable, as part of the process of reunification of the galaxy and the re-emergence of the Jedi Knights. If the dark side is simply suppressed, pushed into the unconscious, then it will surely rise again.

So Palpatine's return is a literal manifestation of the idea that the dark side can't be killed off, but must be integrated. Luke can choose to kill Palpatine again when he first encounters him again in Dark Empire, but such a means of dealing with him would ultimately be a wasted effort because he would revive again as another clone. Thus, Luke's choice is practical as well as philosophical. He apprentices himself to Palpatine to figure out how to defeat him -- as well as to "penetrate the dark side and learn its secrets," as Veitch puts it.

Reviving Palpatine is not the most eloquent way to do the method, as it could have been accomplished with another antagonist capable of the same feat, but that was probably outside of the scope of a six issue series, and could have drawn the same criticism vis-a-vis using cloning to obtain immortality.

I think most would find issue with the usage of Palpatine now due to the context that the prequel trilogy provided, and even before that it could have been argued that resurrecting Palpatine works to diminish Anakin's sacrifice.

I'd argue against the former that the proliferation of Sith in the post-film timeline equally diminishes the impact of the prophecy itself, whereas I don't think that the latter argument is true because Anakin sacrificed himself to save Luke, not to kill Palpatine. Killing Palpatine was a means to an end, not an end itself, and Palpatine's survival is irrelevant to what Anakin sacrificed himself for. He died for his son.

I thought it was an interesting idea that perhaps could have been detached from Palpatine and explored more deeply in a different medium. And to some degree, it has!


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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:14 am Reply with quote  
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  1337Jedi
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I really liked Dark Empire. The art was amazing and the action was fast paced and moved the entire arc along very smoothly. Personally I did not like bringing back Palps, He was waaaaaaaaaaay to big of a villain to be simply pulled out of storage for a comic book arc. However I completely agree with your going to the dark side to learn about it. That was a great part I the story and your right I would like to hear a bit more about someone doing this. But as a whole to answer the main question, he should of stayed dead.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Murray1134
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I never liked Dark Empire. I don't like the idea of Luke turning to the dark side, I don't like the idea of Palpatine coming back, especially only 6 years after the end of ROTJ, and there is the whole continuity mess when dealing with Heir to the Empire as well.

Plus I never liked the artwork in it either.
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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Yeah, that seems to be the general consensus that I've seen lately.

I thought the watercolors were interesting, but it's definitely an acquired taste. I think it suits the dark atmosphere.

I liked the original six issues of Dark Empire, but I felt like Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End had no real reason to exist except as a product of the popularity of the original. Especially since it brought back the Emperor again by means even more extreme than his original resurrection -- when you factor in the ex post facto explanation that the Emperor's spirit piggybacked on Jeng Droga to reach Byss from Endor. When he died at Da Soocha, he had no one to piggyback on to reach the Deep Core again. Granted, the original comic had no such spirit piggyback action, thus Palpatine was simply capable of traveling vast distances in spirit form to return to a clone body, and that does suit the metaphor. There's also the implication that the experience of doing so is maddening, so the first death unhinged Palpatine, and the second one at Da Soocha really affected him so that he began lucid but really lost his grip through Dark Empire II and Empire's End.

I did like the introduction of the ambiguity as to whether the Emperor Reborn was truly the spirit of Palpatine from the films. Two other Emperor's Hands, Mara Jade in Vision of the Future and Lumiya in Betrayal (IIRC) both insist it wasn't truly Palpatine.


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:15 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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I liked it because I agree with you that the thematic elements of the storyline are important to future story lines, even if that story itself is a little bit silly in hindsight.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One was never a part of the SW mythos until the prequels. The idea that the resurrection of the Emperor diminishes the ending of the OT was the charge that was leveled against ALL of the post ROTJ EU, not just that story. I would argue that the Emperor got pretty much zero character development or insight in the OT, so actually contributing to that in Dark Empire was an improvement and enhancement to the OT, not a detraction.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Werehunter
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I'm just going to say no. Just one bad part of a bad story.


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 PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  Etain_Skirata
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I didn't mind the DE story quite as much as some SW fans did, especially in light of the whole Plageus (however that's spelled) thing that came out after Ep III... If Palpatine really was human, rather than that being a facade to gain Anakin's trust or whatever, cloning would make sense as it's the only way he could have survived all that time.

The hundreds of years between Palpy's training and Anakin's appearance would mean that even with the cool tech, he would have died of old age a bunch of times before having the chance to start corrupting his prized protege`, so even in the context of SW storyline, it's really not that bad.


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 PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:20 pm Reply with quote  
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  Proudfoot
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 PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Etain_Skirata
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I don't see what you mean.

I know, as well as any other multimedia SW fan does, that Plageus was Palpy's master. Plageus lived about 300- 400 years before Ep IV. Even in SW humans don't live for much more than about 100 yrs.

So unless Palps was, say, a Clawdite, then the idea that he was cloned a bunch of times (a connection reference to the comment about influencing the midis and creating life from them directly), is the only way for him to live as long as that necessitates. Unless you think Anakin was completely duped, which I find hard to believe, then at least some of what Palps said in the Opera House in Ep III was the truth.

How hard is it to see a straight storyline between Darth Plageus, Ep III and DE? Palps learned at Plageus' feet. Plageus taught Palpatine absolutely everything he knew. Palpatine transfers his essence to his clones. Given his comment in Ep III to Anakin, it seems to stand to reason that Palpy used the Force to do more than animate them. I think he used the Force to create the clones at a distance, the same way that Vader uses the Force in Ep V to choke officers from lightyears away.

What can be used to punish can also be used to create. The only way Palps could have learned the clone creation trick was Plageus. If Palpy can do it once, why not more times?

To me, it's a simple enough connection to make between one story and another, but I get that sometimes I draw connections between things more easily and\or quickly than others do. Sometimes, it's hard for me to remember that some people need me to actually draw them a picture and color it in, so to speak, to understand what I'm saying, rather than the straight course my thought process tends to take at lightspeed.


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 PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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In the novel Darth Plagueis,

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Where does the idea come from that he lived 300 - 400 years prior to Episode IV: A New Hope?


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 PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:25 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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If I remember Muuns lived to be about 200 years old, but Plageuis himself was less than that, less than 100. I'm thinking like 60 to 80...

Which has nothing at all to do with Palpatine who is like 20 at the start of the book and so he wouldn't be more than 70 or 80 even by Dark Empire.

Even Plageuis Master, Darth Tenebrous didn't live 300 years before ANH. He was at most 200 years old, and that is over twice the normal life span of his species.
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 PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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I think what Etain was saying though was that Plagueis died 300 - 400 years before Episode IV, so Palpatine would have had to have lived that long to have been trained by him. I've never heard that. Even the New Essential Chronology placed Plagueis' death about a decade or so before Episode I.


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 PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:52 am Reply with quote  
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  1337Jedi
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Crash Override Has it right guys...... We saw the scene play out..... Prob the only lack luster event In the whole book!
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 PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 1:17 pm Reply with quote  
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  Niner
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Murray1134 wrote:
I never liked Dark Empire. I don't like the idea of Luke turning to the dark side, I don't like the idea of Palpatine coming back, especially only 6 years after the end of ROTJ, and there is the whole continuity mess when dealing with Heir to the Empire as well.

Plus I never liked the artwork in it either.


I definately agree with this. also, Luke's turn to the darkside made no sense. Its like

ROTJ:
Emperor: Join Me
Luke: I'll never join you!

DE:
Emperor: Join Me,
Luke: Well, I have nothing better to do, so maybe turning to the darkside will be fun. I'm in!

Thats what it felt like, atleast. The art and coloring was also really annoying. I actually don't have a problem with the emperor being able to clone himself, its the way it was done, and Luke's sudden nonsensical darkside turn, that makes me dislike DE.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 1:30 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ Agreed. I really don't like the idea of Luke going over to the dark side.
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