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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:58 am Reply with quote  
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  Salaris Vorn
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That's kinda like how it is with female gamers too isn't it?
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Salaris Vorn wrote:
That's kinda like how it is with female gamers too isn't it?


Yup. I went to a con with a girl I dated for awhile and she went in full Master Chief armor. She got kind of ignored for quite awhile. She loves the franchise though, so it kind of bothered me that nerds are just as superficial as some of the dude-bros they hate.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:21 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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I'd say in a very general way that my experience in the fandom is that female fan voice is more often disregarded than the male voice. Of course, there are always exceptions, but I've talked to several other female fans, a lot of whom are bloggers, and there is this general consensus on that.

As for cons, I hope you are all aware of this.

http://www.themarysue.com/?s=cosplay+isn%27t+consent

This incident just happened this past March. Now I'm not the recipient of this kind of stuff at cons because 1) I don't cosplay and 2) I look like your mother and I have perfected The Look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrd9NCD4lpk
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:38 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Cerrinea wrote:
I'd say in a very general way that my experience in the fandom is that female fan voice is more often disregarded than the male voice. Of course, there are always exceptions, but I've talked to several other female fans, a lot of whom are bloggers, and there is this general consensus on that.

As for cons, I hope you are all aware of this.

http://www.themarysue.com/?s=cosplay+isn%27t+consent

This incident just happened this past March. Now I'm not the recipient of this kind of stuff at cons because 1) I don't cosplay and 2) I look like your mother and I have perfected The Look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrd9NCD4lpk


I heard about this, and it bothered me. It ticks me off that some people have no self-control at these kinds of things.

Female fans do need a better voice, I hate to say it but currently the one they have isn't going to work even though it should. Females are appreciated in fandom, but not fully recognized passed something ordinarily dominated by males. There is another problem: women represented in comic books and most video games are presented as insanely sexy and as eye candy, even if they are the protagonist. Therefore the cosplay usually travels down that line as well and that should be absolutely fine but (speaking as a stupid male, I admit it) we look. Changing the outlook on the entire thing is the only way to change it.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:26 pm Reply with quote  
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  Cerrinea
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The problem with that PAX East episode was that the offender was a professional, not just some out of line fanboy. His initial question and subsequent response was beyond unprofessional. He pulled the rape defense. And the thing is these were Lara Croft cosplayers which, on a scale of sexy cosplay, is about a 5. PAX East did the right thing and permanently barred that reporter.

Honestly an admiring/flattering look is never objectionable. Frankly I think most of us like to be viewed as desirable. Objectionable is when it crosses that line. This removes the person, turns them into an object who's only purpose is to be used by the person doing the objectification.

And yeah I'd agree a big part of the problem is that most females in comics and video games are totally unrealistic manifestations. So are male characters in a over the top macho way which is just as bad in a different way. Neither characterization should be perpetuated, but they are.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Queen Padmè Skywalker
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This may not apply so much to female gamers, but I've noticed that the female fanbase for most of my fandoms is comprised of legions of squealing preteen to 20-something girls who care nothing about the show/movie except for their chosen "slash ship". I'm rather ashamed of some of my favorite fandoms as a result.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:52 pm Reply with quote  
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  Caedus_16
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Cerrinea wrote:
The problem with that PAX East episode was that the offender was a professional, not just some out of line fanboy. His initial question and subsequent response was beyond unprofessional. He pulled the rape defense. And the thing is these were Lara Croft cosplayers which, on a scale of sexy cosplay, is about a 5. PAX East did the right thing and permanently barred that reporter.

Honestly an admiring/flattering look is never objectionable. Frankly I think most of us like to be viewed as desirable. Objectionable is when it crosses that line. This removes the person, turns them into an object who's only purpose is to be used by the person doing the objectification.

And yeah I'd agree a big part of the problem is that most females in comics and video games are totally unrealistic manifestations. So are male characters in a over the top macho way which is just as bad in a different way. Neither characterization should be perpetuated, but they are.


I agree fully, but with comics still being dominated by male readers I think it damages more male perceptions of women than the other way around. Still though, I agree fully with your statement that professionalism was destroyed in that instance, but I would say that it would have been just as angering if an out-of-line fanboy did it. I don't think its any less of a problem, though the professionalism casts a darker light on the overall event.

People all strive to be seen as desirable, but cosplay needs to be done carefully. There's desirable and then there's the Catwomen in their underwear with a whip and mask (quite frequently seen, at least in my experience). I think as long as everyone can be mature about it then its fine, but we're still living in a world where not everyone can so its kind of a crap-shoot.
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:41 pm Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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One of the issues, beyond the issue of sexy versus objectifying, is the notion that women who do that kind of cosplay are doing it for male attention and not because they actually like that character or franchise.

There have been several instances where notable men in comics and comic related media have made an outcry about "fake fangirls".

On one hand there is some truth there because some of these scantily clad ladies at cons are models that were hired for promotion and are not actual fans. On the other hand there is a sexist element that questions a fan based on female gender in a way that male fans don't have to endure that plays into the "boys club" mentality.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:40 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:
One of the issues, beyond the issue of sexy versus objectifying, is the notion that women who do that kind of cosplay are doing it for male attention and not because they actually like that character or franchise.

*sniggers* If they're looking for male attention, why are they going to a geek convention?

Cerrinea wrote:
And yeah I'd agree a big part of the problem is that most females in comics and video games are totally unrealistic manifestations. So are male characters in a over the top macho way which is just as bad in a different way. Neither characterization should be perpetuated, but they are.

I think female representations are a lot worse. Male leads are allowed to be losers, nerds etc., but females always have to be Aphrodite made flesh. I generally find it a lot easier to take male characters seriously than female characters in comics (certainly not in books, my beloved and much preferred medium, though).
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:59 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I never had a problem taking Kerra Holt seriously in the Knight Errant comics.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:28 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ That's true. I haven't really read any Knight Errant comics, but from what I've seen, Kerra doesn't seem like the typical comic female lead.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:06 am Reply with quote  
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  1337Jedi
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Just touching on a few of these issues, I feel that when you enter the door of a Con all rules of what a person "should" look like along with many other real world rules/expectations should be left at the door. Everyone entering loves the "theme/topic" of the Con, you should not be there looking for new love, or a date, or to judge other people in the slightest. The ridiculous from both extremes should be looked at the same way, whether a "sexy" skimpy bathing suit darth maul outfit or a 3X sized slave Leia outfit, the same. That's what makes them feel happy, that's how their fandom is expressed all power to them. People look/act ridiculous at Ren fairs and those are for the most part mild fans, yet things seem to fair better at those events, how I just don't get it. Aren't we SW/SCi-fi fans suppose to be the (lack of better words) "nerdy, book readers" ie......... The smarter of people In fandom?!? Why it is so hard to forget that we all should be treated exactly the same, when we are here for the exact same reason just eludes me.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:16 am Reply with quote  
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  Hogy
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^Same goes for Ania Solo, for now at least.

It's not that they're not supposed to be good looking, they would still be portrayed by pretty actresses if there were movies made from these comics. Authors now days just seem to get that wearing a bikini on Hoth makes no sense at all.

EDIT: Thought I was posting after Reep (I stept out for a bit) and then submited my post. I haven't seen that you posted 1337Jedi. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused Embarassed


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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:18 am Reply with quote  
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  Dog-Poop_Walker
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Good point 1337 Jedi. That is how it should be... but there are a few underlying reasons that give rise to it beyond just good old fashion jerkiness.

Part of it is the idea that geekdom is exclusively for males. There's a lot to that, but that is what it boils down to. A lot of these guys just aren't used to being around women and it's a problem for them.

The other problem is that for those fans above the age of 20 or so grew up in a different media environment then the one we have now. Now largely because the of internet it is easy for people to find things they like and groups devoted to those things. For those that grew up pre internet their fandom was confined to a niche group and they have a cult like mentality about it. A lot of them came from a time when "geek" was a bad word and they were picked on because of their interests. Now pretty much everyone is into "geek" culture and for the former shunned geeks to see pretty and popular people waving the geek flag, it is alienating to them.
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:14 am Reply with quote  
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  1337Jedi
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^ I think you pretty much nailed it!
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